Disclaimer: Second Life® and Linden Lab® are trademarks or registered trademarks of Linden Research, Inc. All rights reserved. No infringement is intended. ArtGyro is a group within Second Life owned by FreeWee Ling. The project is a recipient of a limited virtual land grant from the Linden Endowment for the Arts (LEA), but is not otherwise affiliated with LEA.

Who Knows What’s Good?

Building Arts Organizations That Build Audiences

Free PDF download

This new 15-page report from the Wallace Foundation: “Building Arts Organizations That Build Audiences” (free PDF download) is interesting as much for what it doesn’t say as for what it does. The title is a bit misleading, I think, though you do need to read it carefully. It’s not about building audiences. It’s about building organizations.

The Wallace Foundation has funded a lot of very important research about sustainable arts. I was excited to get this new report, but upon reading it, I found it a bit disappointing. There were basically two main points that are relevant to virtual arts groups:

  1. What is the role of the arts curator (by which we include any arts presenter who makes decisions about who and what to present)?
  2. In order to build audiences, you need to do market research.


In 2001 RAND (a nonprofit research organization) published a controversial report funded by the Wallace Foundation titled “A New Framework for Building Participation in the Arts” (free PDF download). It was a seminal study in that no comprehensive empirical research had been done before to examine the value of the arts, both in economic terms and in terms of quality of life. Traditionally, arts organizations have liked to have hard numbers to take to governmental and other granting bodies in order to justify their continued support on the grounds of economic activity. This is the bread and butter of large arts advocacy organizations like Americans for the Arts (AFTA). The assumption is that a dollar invested in the arts will generate X dollars in economic activity, returning a net gain to the treasury of a government’s budget. But that data had never before been systematically gathered and scrutinized.

At least as important as the data analysis in the report is the reformation of the funding argument, away from economics and towards participation. Philanthropists and granting institutions are more and more looking for something other than economic viability in return for their investments. They want to know that their support matters. Before the worldwide economic downturn, they were less concerned about money that about making a difference in people’s lives. I think that has shifted somewhat, but the core idea is that arts organizations should not be concentrating on how to make a product that sells, but rather on how to sell a product they make.

A  central tenet of the report is reflected within its title: “building participation.” This is a new paradigm to describe what was (and largely still is) what most arts organizations call “audience development.” As we all know, revenues in the arts are largely tied to crowd sourcing. The way to get people to see and fund and buy art (of whatever kind) is to get them to know it exists and to remove the barriers to their participation in it. Sure, many people will go to concerts and movies and even art galleries and they will appreciate the art for what it is and they will feel better for the experience. But there is a fundamental difference between being a passive audience member and being an active participant. To get people to feel a part of the experience there has to be a feedback loop.

In short, it has, on some level, to be interactive (my interpretation, not theirs). If making art in virtual worlds has taught us anything, it’s that what makes it most compelling is the ability to interact. Not only specific intentional interactions with scripted objects, but also with each other in real time. I was stunned the first time I attended a popular live music event in SL and started to read all the back chatter. I could do without the Woots! and wolf howls and invasive text gestures, but the fact remained that the audience was engaged and sharing the live music experience in real time as it was happening. This would be considered the height of rudeness in real life, but in virtual worlds the ability to participate in the social aspect is entirely a matter of muting or unmuting, And not only does the audience interact with each other, the performer often participates in the dialogue as well. (Some are more expert than others at dealing with the distractions.) Similarly, with visual art, there are  opportunities to interact with the art, the artists, and other patrons that are not dissimilar to rl art openings, but are generally more inviting and open to discussion. So virtual worlds should be seen as one solution to overcoming barriers to participation. The sheer scope and size of the arts community in SL is a compelling argument. In real terms it’s a drop in the bucket, but in terms of participation, how many rl galleries can claim to have shown over 850 works by 242 artists from 24 countries in one year, as we did last year just at UWA? Add to that the other major art presenters like Pirats, Crossworlds, etc., and together we have a formidable record of achievement. At least in terms of participation.

The new report from the Wallace Foundation asks the question, “As groups with creativity in their DNA, can [arts organizations] take steps to make the arts a bigger part of more people’s lives? If so, how do they make sure that this work endures?” The report is the result of a conference of 54 arts organizations that were recipient of Wallace Excellence Awards, a targeted grant program to help organizations develop and sustain audiences.  I think it will be worth using as the foundation for a discussion at ArtGyro. Let’s see how we can translate theory into action!

Here are some bullet points that resonated with me (comments in italics are my own):

  • There’s not much arts organizations can do to stop a global economic meltdown. But as groups with creativity in their DNA, can they take steps to make the arts a bigger part of more people’s lives? If so, how do they make sure that this work endures? (3)
  • The role of arts organizations: Does curation/mediation interfere with audience experience? Or is it crucial to make certain the work is understood and appreciated? (FL)
  • Ben Cameron, program director for the arts at the Doris Duke Charitable Foundation, who asserted that modern audiences want to be more than passive recipients of art that someone else has decided is good for them. “Just as the religious reformation challenged the necessity of the intermediary priest in a spiritual relationship,” he told the conference, “many in today’s arts reformation question the necessity of a professional artist in a creative artistic experience.” (3)
  • James Cuno, former president and director at The Art Institute of Chicago, now president and CEO of the J. Paul Getty Trust. “What museums do best is to present works of art to people,” he said. “In some ways that is enough. The curatorial role is to choose to our best ability those works of art that we think are most important. The curator is not standing in front of the visitor but next to the visitor. Our job is to make everyone feel that this collection is for them.”  (4)
  • Doug McLennan, editor of ArtsJournal, wondering whether curatorial views of arts organizations “allow for enough relationship.”(4)
  • David Hawkanson, executive director of Steppenwolf Theatre in Chicago. Steppenwolf, he said, would not suggest that the audience should select the plays it produces nor would its audience want it to.  (4)
  • …they found little to argue about on another point – that it is the power of art to touch the soul that lies at the heart of tapping greater engagement in the arts. (4)
  • Cameron: “Sometimes we don’t appreciate what the arts might mean for us or how dependent we are on arts or how integral they are to the spirit. We need to pay attention to that power. [This is about] sustaining what art offers the individual spirit and offers human interaction.” (4)
  • Building participation. Developing audiences. (From the RAND model):
    •  “broadening” audiences (attracting more audience members like those currently attending)
    •  “deepening” them (enriching the experience of participants)
    •  “diversifying” them (bringing new groups into the fold)
  • Understanding audiences requires market research. (5)
  • (FL): Anyone care to speculate about who attends art events in SL?
  • (FL): There are few barriers to attending arts events in SL. You don’t have transportation issues, most events are free. The main barrier with a global audience is time zones.
  • …assisting an audience was not the same thing as changing an artistic mission. (7)
  • (FL): Do organizational models apply to groups in SL? Groups generally have one or two people in a leadership role who determine all the activities. Few groups have “staff” other than a few volunteers.
  • (FL): A peculiarity of many SL arts presenters is that they are operated philanthropically. Or for the personal emotional enrichment of the presenters. They may want to share the experience, but numbers of visitors or economic return on investment are not primary goals. The viability of a show does not depend on popularity.
  • David Bradford, management author and senior lecturer emeritus in organizational behavior at Stanford University: “Innovative organizations have a high failure rate because they experiment a lot,” he said. “You want to fail early and fail often.” Bradford pointed to how arts organizations can adopt this mindset: doing small experiments; having a strong, consistent vision from leaders; and finding ways to clearly support failure so people will take risks. (10)
  • (FL)I.e., if you’re worried about failing, you won’t take risks. So arrange things in such a way that failure is a viable result.
  • John Holden, an associate at the British think tank Demos: “If you are not in crisis, you need a bold, powerful, simple statement that says what you are doing and why you are doing it.” (10)
  • Steppenwold raises specific funds for experimentation (“risk capital”). (10)
  • Today is a time when, Demos’ Holden said, audiences want in varying degrees to “enjoy, talk and do.” (15)
  • Daniel Windham, Wallace’s arts director: “How do we help people find meaning and beauty in their lives is the question,” he said. “The meaning-making is what we are looking for.” (15)

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Cloning myself for art

Just to keep you informed, I am working on putting together a forum on intellectual property (IP) issues in SL and virtual worlds. It’s taking some time because I want to line up some experts to address the group on IP issues as they relate to creative work in SL and other virtual worlds.  (Suggestions for speakers are welcome.) I hope to have something to announce within the next week or two.

For background, I recommend you read (and try to make sense of) Section 7 of the SL TOS. Also, Sasun Steinbeck has led similar forums on this topic a number of times. She was kind enough to suggest the following websites for background information:

In other news, I have turned on ArtGyro Group Notices and Group Chat for any member. Please only use these for highly relevant topics. No event postings unless specifically oriented toward arts sustainability issues.

The Cost of Art (Meeting summary/transcript)

ArtGyro hosted its second open forum on Saturday, 18 February at the ArtGyro meeting kiva at the LEA sim. The subject was the cost of making, buying, selling, and owning art in SL. As usual the conversation was broad, but a few key elements took focus:

  • Except for nonprofits who experienced the price rise a couple years ago, we have all been living for a long time with basically the same costs, but for some reason it has seemed more oppressive in recent months with several important arts entities failing or re-inventing themselves. This may be the result of the global economic troubles, but may also be due in part to land owners suffering tier fatigue as they realize how many thousands of real dollars they’ve spent.
  • Few people understand how much it costs in sim tier to have objects rezzed inworld.
  • The artist/gallery relationship is often seen as adversarial rather than cooperative. It’s important for all parties to understand and communicate what they are bringing to the table. (How many galleries have written contracts spelling out what each party provides to the relationship?)
  • There are ways to economize on prim costs (esp. intelligent use of rezzers to use the same space and prims for multiple installations.)
  • Strategic relationships can help leverage limited resources. Jo Ellsmere suggested the Odyssey business model as a sustainable example in which the resident artists pay a sort of subscription to use the resources cooperatively. It was also suggested a similar model might be used for a gallery in which the exhibiting artists pay the costs. FreeWee described the hybrid residential model at Artemisia in which paying residents got designated parcels/prims, but also shared common resources.
  • Gridhopping seems to be the way of the future as OpenSim grids become more stable and Hypergrid enabled. Artitsts are using OpenSims to create and SL to show.  Sowa used the analogy of NY galleries that created cultural centers in affordable neighborhoods which then became  gentrified, causing the galleries to move to other areas.

Meeting transcript

In attendance:

  • Banrion Constantine
  • Jo Ellsmere
  • ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville)
  • Justine Rhapsody
  • Zachh Cale
  • claudia222 Jewell
  • FreeWee Ling
  • Secret Rage
  • Uri Young
  • Mikati Slade

[08:07] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville):

[08:07] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): suggested for consideration

[08:08] FreeWee Ling: What is your thinking about this, Thinker? 🙂

[08:09] FreeWee Ling: Welcome to ArtGyro everyone! Let’s get started.

[08:09] FreeWee Ling: Please use text chat to talk. This is a public forum. Without objection, the chat log will be published on the ArtGyro website.

[08:09] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): holodecks can reduce the cost of dislay

[08:10] FreeWee Ling: Good point.

[08:10] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): by allowing multiple displays in the same space

[08:10] FreeWee Ling: Rezzers can be an economical way to show art, especially that has a lot of prims.

[08:11] Secret Rage: yes good conservation

[08:11] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I have 20 builds on my island — each uses 1/9th of the island — the same 1/9th

[08:12] FreeWee Ling: Excellent. You use Rez Faux or some other?

[08:12] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): a build is rezzed by clicking on a box

[08:12] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I use horizon —

[08:12] FreeWee Ling: There’s also the free Holo-Rezzer that’s been around for years.

[08:13] FreeWee Ling: Please look at the questions on the boards. This is an open discussion that will be determined by your concerns.

[08:13] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): have automatic bulld also — you go to the spot and the build rezzes around you

[08:14] FreeWee Ling: As a starting point I also recommend you look at the ArtGyro website. There’s a list of fixed costs of prims there.

[08:14] FreeWee Ling: In US dollars per month:

Full sim tier: $295.00

Full sim prims: 15000

Exchange rate: L$ 244.22 = US$ 1.00 (Lindex 14 Feb 2012)

The cost of one Linden is approx $0.004

Cost of one prim: $0.019666 (just under 2 cents)

Cost of one prim: 2.08 Lindens

[08:15] FreeWee Ling: Do people in your experience understand how much it costs for objects to exist here?

[08:15] Sowa Mai: no

[08:15] Sowa Mai: I didnt

[08:15] Jo Ellsmere: No, not a bit, imo

[08:15] Sowa Mai: till i read this

[08:15] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I own 3 sims — yes I know

[08:15] Jo Ellsmere: I certainly did not

[08:16] Secret Rage: i dont really think in terms of per prim, i guess

[08:16] FreeWee Ling: Well, the cost is paid whether the prims are used or not.

[08:16] Jo Ellsmere: No, I never have, either

[08:16] Secret Rage: right

[08:17] Zachh (zachh.cale): yes good point FreeWee, you pay whether you use the prims or not, so you need to always foot that cost, and plan for the full amount

[08:17] FreeWee Ling: So any unused prims are a waste. The per prim cost is higher the fewer you use.

[08:17] Secret Rage: no worries there…my home sim is always almost at capacity

[08:17] Secret Rage: <<<< hog

[08:18] Secret Rage: 🙂

[08:18] FreeWee Ling: When put in context of trying to sell a 3D object with a lot of prims, the cost can be significant.

[08:18] Jo Ellsmere: I’m not sure I see that as a ‘waste’ exactly. How is that different than any other art medium kept on hand?

[08:18] Secret Rage: well true Jo

[08:18] Secret Rage: like paints for instance

[08:18] Jo Ellsmere: yes, exactly

[08:18] FreeWee Ling: Most art media are supplies that are used once

[08:18] Sowa Mai: maintenance of rl painting, sculpture

[08:18] Jo Ellsmere: any materials

[08:18] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): There are indirect costs for scripts — too many lag the sim

[08:18] Zachh (zachh.cale): yes and sometimes you can’t use every prim, depending on the texture or prim lag of each exhibit

[08:18] Zachh (zachh.cale): or script lag

[08:19] FreeWee Ling: Here, you have to remove prims in order to reuse the same resource

[08:19] Banrion Constantine: .05, .06, or .085 cents per prim for mainland depending on what premium membership you buy. Sorry, took me a few minutes to do the math

[08:19] Jo Ellsmere: sometimes you simply don’t need to use every prim

[08:19] Jo Ellsmere: but they’re there if needed

[08:19] Zachh (zachh.cale): so even though you can use every prim, it’s not practical if the lag produced is so great , no one can visit

[08:19] Jo Ellsmere: very true

[08:19] Banrion Constantine: Good point Zachh

[08:19] FreeWee Ling: These numbers assume you are not paying a renter’s premium to a landlord.

[08:20] FreeWee Ling: Right. These are base numbers. Not to be assumed to have that much significance per se.

[08:20] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): with a holodeck my cost per prim is much smaller that those numbers

[08:20] FreeWee Ling: But to make us aware that the cost of resources here is significant.

[08:20] Zachh (zachh.cale): ty yes

[08:20] FreeWee Ling: Yes.

[08:21] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): they are not all out at once– only when peple are there wanting them

[08:21] FreeWee Ling: If you sell flat pictures — a texture on a prim — the cost is minimal. But if you make something complex it adds up.

[08:22] FreeWee Ling: And the cost is per month. It’s relentless. If you want to see it, it’ll cost you

[08:22] Zachh (zachh.cale): yes and if you buy a mesh object and resize it larger, it might cost a lot more prims

[08:22] FreeWee Ling: Indeed. And that’s the trend.

[08:23] FreeWee Ling: A lot of people use sandboxes.. Unless yo’re on a Linden sandbox, someone is paying tier for you to be able to work.

[08:24] FreeWee Ling: Do people often even know who is paying for the space?

[08:24] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): That is right– I own and pay for a sandbox on Hobo Island

[08:24] Zachh (zachh.cale): that’s very generous of you Thinkerer!

[08:24] Banrion Constantine: Depends on the person

[08:24] FreeWee Ling: What is your experience?

[08:24] Banrion Constantine: Yeah, I love Hobo. But I always seem to get in trouble there. lol

[08:24] FreeWee Ling: heehee

[08:24] Zachh (zachh.cale): lol Banrion what kind of trouble

[08:25] Zachh (zachh.cale): googles

[08:25] Banrion Constantine: dunno. was banned once long time ago

[08:25] Zachh (zachh.cale): ohhhh

[08:25] Banrion Constantine: and had a talking to last time lol

[08:25] Banrion Constantine: Im really good, I swear!

[08:25] Zachh (zachh.cale): haha

[08:25] Banrion Constantine: Only place I’ve ever been banned from!

[08:26] FreeWee Ling: Maybe someone was into alliteration. Just wanted to be able to say they could ban Ban.

[08:26] Banrion Constantine: hahah maybe.

[08:26] Secret Rage: 🙂

[08:26] FreeWee Ling: When you work in a sandbox, do you know who’s paying for it?

[08:27] Zachh (zachh.cale): that’s interesting because there are hidden costs in managing these prims, like making sure that griefers (not banrion!) are not impeding the use of those prims, which defeats the whole purpose. We spend time and sometimes pay others for effort maintaining the peace around the prims

[08:27] Banrion Constantine: I usually pay attention, yes. And donate what I can if there’s a donation hat out

[08:27] Banrion Constantine: (thanks)

[08:28] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): There are some Hobos that keep the peace and Hobo Island —

[08:28] Secret Rage: I have in the past been the caretaker for my landlords sandbox…and yes, there are costs

[08:28] Banrion Constantine: That’s true, Zachh. Disruption can be construed as financial loss. Never thought of it like that.

[08:29] FreeWee Ling: How about galleries? What about the relationships between the gallery owner and the artist? Do you think artists understand the investments made by the gallery owners?

[08:29] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): baggz Yue is the one to contact if you are banned

[08:29] Banrion Constantine: Yeah. He unbanned me, I think. lol

[08:29] Banrion Constantine: I can go there now anyway. lol

[08:29] Zachh (zachh.cale): hehe

[08:30] Jo Ellsmere: Many artists probably don’t understand those gallery costs

[08:30] Zachh (zachh.cale): that’s a good question freewee

[08:30] Sowa Mai: Alot of artists I have met seem to think the gallery owner owes them something

[08:30] Jo Ellsmere: not too specifically, anyway

[08:30] Sowa Mai: they project their parent issues on to the dealers

[08:30] Zachh (zachh.cale): haha Sowa

[08:31] FreeWee Ling: I’ve talked with gallery owners who say artists think they’re being taken advantage of. I think the reality is that art sales rarely cover even the basic prim costs.

[08:31] Sowa Mai: running a gallery is a labor of love as is creating art

[08:31] Secret Rage: agreed

[08:31] Jo Ellsmere: in SL specifically?

[08:31] Jo Ellsmere: or in general?

[08:32] FreeWee Ling: Yes in SL.

[08:32] Sowa Mai: I am talking generally

[08:32] Uri Young: so what do you think is the best way to make money in SL?

[08:32] Sowa Mai: pole dancing

[08:32] Zachh (zachh.cale): Is it the gallery or artspace owner’s job to communicate costs to the artist? Is that walking on thin ice?

[08:32] Secret Rage: lmao

[08:32] Zachh (zachh.cale): lol sowa!

[08:32] Zachh (zachh.cale): he’s right

[08:32] Banrion Constantine: Personally, I think if you’re in SL to make money as an artist, besides trying to cover expenses —

[08:32] FreeWee Ling: I think it is the responsibility if all parties to understand the relationship.

[08:33] Banrion Constantine: pole dancing should be your side job yes

[08:33] Banrion Constantine: lol

[08:33] Secret Rage: 🙂

[08:33] Uri Young: i don’t know

[08:33] FreeWee Ling: There are over 500 galleries in SL. How many do you think are covering their costs in commissions?

[08:33] Zachh (zachh.cale): it’s great if artist and artspace support each other, and that might depend on a level of trust, trust earned or trust assumed

[08:33] Jo Ellsmere: probably very few or none, I should think

[08:33] Banrion Constantine: communication is important. people don’t really talk about stuff in SL — especially if it’s not all sunshine and rainbows

[08:34] Zachh (zachh.cale): well total economy is down

[08:34] Secret Rage: as it is worldwide rl

[08:34] Zachh (zachh.cale): people have to prioritize

[08:34] Sowa Mai: maybe the artist when joining a sl gallery could be incorporated in to the group who’s responsibility includes sharing tier

[08:34] Zachh (zachh.cale): prioritize their expendable income

[08:35] FreeWee Ling: That’s an interesting idea Ban. Like an artists’ cooperative?

[08:35] Zachh (zachh.cale): interesting idea!

[08:35] Jo Ellsmere: That’s what we’ve done on Odyssey sim

[08:35] Jo Ellsmere: it’s completely artist supported at this point

[08:35] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): good idea —

[08:35] Banrion Constantine: Yeah, Sowa. Good idea.

[08:35] Sowa Mai: makes sense

[08:35] Zachh (zachh.cale): Jo, can you talk more about that, how does it work with expenses

[08:36] Jo Ellsmere: Well, we’re always interested in donations and fundraising, of course

[08:36] Secret Rage: well especially if a permanent member/showing work there

[08:36] Jo Ellsmere: but we have a core group of permanent ‘sponsors’

[08:36] Zachh (zachh.cale): ahhh ok that helps

[08:36] Jo Ellsmere: well, permanent is maybe too strong a word

[08:36] Jo Ellsmere: committed

[08:36] Uri Young: what’s in it for the sponsors

[08:36] FreeWee Ling: I’ve done that at Artemisia in the past, too. I had residents who shared the cost. It was a residential arrangement. We shared the common areas — natural spaces, a main gallery, etc.

[08:36] Secret Rage: nods

[08:36] Jo Ellsmere: the sponsors have free use of the sim

[08:37] Jo Ellsmere: and any technical support that’s available

[08:37] Zachh (zachh.cale): sponsors can rez anytime?

[08:37] Jo Ellsmere: display and performance space, etc

[08:37] Jo Ellsmere: yes

[08:37] Jo Ellsmere: anytime

[08:37] Jo Ellsmere: but

[08:37] Zachh (zachh.cale): wow

[08:37] Uri Young: interesting

[08:37] Secret Rage: must step away rl a moment

[08:37] Secret Rage will be right back.

[08:37] Jo Ellsmere: available prims are often an issue as one might imagine

[08:37] Zachh (zachh.cale): ok secret!

[08:37] FreeWee Ling: In my case people had designated parcels, but also shared the common resources.

[08:37] Jo Ellsmere: that must be watched carefully

[08:37] Uri Young: and how much would they have to be donating to be entitled to such privilages

[08:38] Zachh (zachh.cale): how do you manage the composition of the sim? Is it ever an issue that it starts looking more like sandbox than art sim

[08:38] Jo Ellsmere: at the moment we have a group who have committed to donating $20 US per month

[08:38] Banrion Constantine: That seems reasonable to me.

[08:38] Jo Ellsmere: that covers tier with a small cushion

[08:38] Jo Ellsmere: but

[08:38] FreeWee Ling: So you need at least 15 of those to cover tier

[08:39] Jo Ellsmere: just because people have verbally committed their support does not mean that everyone always follows through, unfortunately

[08:39] Jo Ellsmere: yes. 15 is the magic number 🙂

[08:39] Jo Ellsmere: so…it’s been wise to plan for a small cushion of funds

[08:39] Mikati Slade: hello everyone, can i have a seat?

[08:39] claudia222 Jewell: hi nutron

[08:39] Zachh (zachh.cale): Hi MIkati!

[08:39] Jo Ellsmere: that’s where fundraising and donations come in

[08:39] claudia222 Jewell: hi mikati

[08:39] FreeWee Ling: Welcome Mikati

[08:39] Banrion Constantine: Hi Mikati. I don’t know. we’re a bit crowded here.

[08:39] Jo Ellsmere: Mikati 🙂

[08:39] Banrion Constantine: 🙂

[08:40] Mikati Slade: sorry bother you

[08:40] Mikati Slade: prease continue

[08:40] Secret Rage: am back

[08:40] Uri Young: so why is your tier costs so high?

[08:40] Jo Ellsmere: on Odyssey?

[08:41] FreeWee Ling: So that’s an interesting model, Jo. Do you think that would work elsewhere? Or does it depend on a close-knit comunity?

[08:41] Jo Ellsmere: or generically?

[08:41] Jo Ellsmere: I think it would work elsewhere

[08:41] Jo Ellsmere: I feel that this is a viable model

[08:41] FreeWee Ling: A sim costs $295/month US Uri.

[08:41] Sowa Mai: it involves being social which is a minefield

[08:41] Jo Ellsmere: unlike the random begging for funds that I’ve seen other groups engage in

[08:41] Sowa Mai: one worth travelling though

[08:41] Banrion Constantine: so you say.

[08:41] Uri Young: thats a high price

[08:42] Jo Ellsmere: When Odyssey’s original sponsor decided to quit we were all scrambling to find a way to survive

[08:42] FreeWee Ling: I think the cooperative idea is good if people can get along. Are there problems sharing resources? Do people have limits?

[08:42] Jo Ellsmere: LLs was unmoved, shall we say, by our pleading 😉

[08:42] Zachh (zachh.cale): Odyssey is one of my favorite art sims

[08:43] Sowa Mai: maybe it could be compared to showing in Manhattan and creating in a studio in Jersey

[08:43] Jo Ellsmere: so far there haven’t been any big issues

[08:43] Jo Ellsmere: when there have been high-prim projects in the works, people have been cooperative

[08:43] Jo Ellsmere: everyone understand, I think, that cooperation is the key

[08:43] Zachh (zachh.cale): yes that is key

[08:43] Zachh (zachh.cale): depends on cohesiveness of the group

[08:44] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): can also cooperate to build traffic

[08:44] Zachh (zachh.cale): people make it happen, and sounds like odyssey has good people

[08:44] Jo Ellsmere: yes, that’s true. That is an issue that must be addressed before and while ‘collecting’ sponsors

[08:44] Jo Ellsmere: Odyssey has very good people!

[08:44] Jo Ellsmere: :))

[08:44] Zachh (zachh.cale): 🙂

[08:44] FreeWee Ling: The usual model for space in SL is that you pay a price for a given number of meters/prims. You get a defined parcel. It’s a paradigm shift for people to think more cooperatively.

[08:45] Jo Ellsmere: considering that costs are only going up…I think that’s a very viable model

[08:45] FreeWee Ling: I think Odyssey is an amazing group. I can’t help wondering if trying to replicate the model would go as well.

[08:45] Jo Ellsmere: I sincerely feel that more groups would have greater success if they

[08:46] Banrion Constantine: It all depends on the personalities involved I think

[08:46] Banrion Constantine: I think it’s feasible.

[08:46] Zachh (zachh.cale): agrees!

[08:46] Banrion Constantine: But possibly bumpy lol

[08:46] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): It won’t work every time — but it will work some of the times

[08:46] FreeWee Ling: I agree, Jo. It’s why I started the ArtGyro project, in fact. I’m trying to get people to start thinking about leveraging their resources through cooperative relationships.

[08:47] Jo Ellsmere: I think that’s the wave of future, honestly

[08:47] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I really like that idea

[08:47] Jo Ellsmere: the costs have gotten so high

[08:47] Sowa Mai: yes

[08:47] Jo Ellsmere: that and OS, perhaps 🙂

[08:48] FreeWee Ling: The cost are out of control. In order for people to survive I think we have to get out of the prims/meters/Lindens box model.

[08:48] Sowa Mai: OS to create SL to show

[08:48] Jo Ellsmere: yes

[08:48] Jo Ellsmere: I am in several OS grids

[08:48] FreeWee Ling: Yes a lot of people are doing that.

[08:48] Jo Ellsmere: they’re great places to experiment

[08:48] Jo Ellsmere: sometimes a bit lonely, though 🙂

[08:49] FreeWee Ling: I just went to an interview with Maria Korolov. Hypergrid Business.

[08:49] FreeWee Ling: There have been recent developments in OS that are exciting.

[08:49] Sowa Mai: SL is the commercial hub of virtual world

[08:50] FreeWee Ling: She thinks LL is going to have to do something about pricing to remain competitive.

[08:50] Jo Ellsmere: I think OS is really the future. Away from the corporate model and towards individuals

[08:50] Banrion Constantine: I hope so.

[08:50] Sowa Mai: in RL artists discover an area, rehab it, and then are priced out by galleries and shops

[08:50] Sowa Mai: so we move on

[08:50] FreeWee Ling: When was the last time LL made an intelligent business decision to benefit users?

[08:50] Zachh (zachh.cale): well if OS lowers expenses, does it also lower the critical mass of people?

[08:51] Jo Ellsmere: critical mass of people in OS is low compared with SL. No denying that

[08:52] Sowa Mai: i think the user SL caters too is no longer the artist but the store owner and the well practiced consumer

[08:52] Jo Ellsmere: agreed Sowa

[08:52] Banrion Constantine hides the feed bag.

[08:53] Sowa Mai: all decisions are aimed there

[08:53] Jo Ellsmere: where the money is 🙂

[08:53] Banrion Constantine: yes exactly.

[08:53] Zachh (zachh.cale): could be Sowa – SL is private entity in business to make money

[08:53] Sowa Mai: it is a viable business model for them and we just have to deal with that

[08:53] Zachh (zachh.cale): although they do promote art exhibits on destination to attract and keep people interested

[08:54] Zachh (zachh.cale): it’s not a direct revenue

[08:54] Zachh (zachh.cale): but it’s an influential consumer based strategy

[08:54] Sowa Mai: if we can set up a small gallery, build in OS and share costs of exhibiting we are following in the footsteps of more than a few artist coops in Soho who moved to Chelsea

[08:54] Zachh (zachh.cale): marketing

[08:54] Zachh (zachh.cale): sounds intriguing

[08:55] Sowa Mai: If I run out of blue paint i can use red, no problem

[08:55] Zachh (zachh.cale): lol

[08:55] Banrion Constantine: flexibility and an open mind. 🙂

[08:55] FreeWee Ling: There are tons of artist in OS

[08:56] Sowa Mai: maybe one OS grid will develop in to a community

[08:56] Sowa Mai: then it’ll get really popular and someone will buy it

[08:56] FreeWee Ling: Many peoplle are in multiple grids and I think that’s how it’s going to be. Hypergrid is now part of the basic install for OS.

[08:56] Sowa Mai: and we will have to move again

[08:56] Zachh (zachh.cale): how much is a sim in OS

[08:56] Uri Young: at the end of the day, whilst we all want to make art for beauty there needs to be a source of income, other than donators wanting to use the sim is there not a way we could sell art more commercially

[08:56] FreeWee Ling: You can host an OS grid for free on your own computer.

[08:57] FreeWee Ling: InWorldz is an offshoot of OS.

[08:57] Zachh (zachh.cale): ok – well how do you get people to know about it

[08:57] FreeWee Ling: As are many others.

[08:57] Zachh (zachh.cale): how do you “connect” it

[08:57] Uri Young: sorry for my ignorance, whats os?

[08:57] Jo Ellsmere: I own a sim in Craft grid which costs 18 Euros for two months

[08:57] claudia222 Jewell: open sim

[08:57] Jo Ellsmere: full sim, 15000 prims

[08:57] Uri Young: thank you

[08:57] Zachh (zachh.cale): nice

[08:57] FreeWee Ling: You hook them together. (OS=OpenSim. The basic platform developed by LL, but is open source)

[08:58] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville):

[08:58] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): see that blog post

[08:58] Zachh (zachh.cale): is there a central map you can look up all os sims?

[08:58] Zachh (zachh.cale): ok ty thinkerer

[08:58] FreeWee Ling: Get a sim in Inworldz I think it’s like 45K prims? $70/month?

[08:58] Jo Ellsmere: yes, something like that, I think

[08:58] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): SRY — I hveto go now — good discussion

[08:59] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): bye all

[08:59] Secret Rage: waves

[08:59] Jo Ellsmere: bye Thinkerer 🙂

[08:59] Zachh (zachh.cale): bye Thinkerer

[08:59] claudia222 Jewell: bye thinkerer

[08:59] FreeWee Ling: SpotOn3D is NOT a good example. of OS

[08:59] Sowa Mai: yes me too, we set up an opportunity for folk to come participate in our LEA build starting now

[09:00] Jo Ellsmere: There is a grid that was started by artists for artists: NGrid

[09:00] Jo Ellsmere: let me grab the link

[09:00] Zachh (zachh.cale): ok

[09:00] FreeWee Ling:

[09:00] FreeWee Ling:

[09:01] FreeWee Ling: Directory of opensims

[09:02] FreeWee Ling: So there are options. SL is still by far the best if you need physics and you want a global audience.

[09:02] FreeWee Ling: But is it 4 times better than InWorldz? Infinitely better than your own OS?

[09:03] Zachh (zachh.cale): I have to go – thanks again for this discussion Freewee and everyone!

[09:03] Jo Ellsmere:

[09:03] Banrion Constantine: Quick interjection. Sowa had to leave to take care of our show at 9 here at LEA. If anyone wants to drop by and add their textures.

[09:03] Jo Ellsmere: sorry…took me a moment to find it

[09:04] Banrion Constantine: Bye, Zachh

[09:04] FreeWee Ling: I think the point is to look at options and so on where we can work together to find synergies.

[09:04] Jo Ellsmere: And there are options

[09:04] Secret Rage: smiles mine is next door at 7

[09:04] Banrion Constantine: cool. 🙂

[09:05] FreeWee Ling: Yay. OK. Thank you all. I’ll try to distill this and get it on the website. 🙂

[09:05] Jo Ellsmere: thanks FreeWee

[09:05] Secret Rage: smiles

[09:05] Secret Rage: good to see u all

[09:06] FreeWee Ling: More discussions to come. We’ll be talking about intellectual property issues, legacy, etc.

ArtGyro Open Forum: The Cost of Art

ArtGyro Open Forum: The Cost of Art
Saturday, 18 February, at 8:00AM SLT
ArtGyro LEA sim (LEA18)
Contact: FreeWee Ling

Following the first ArtGyro Open Forum on arts sustainability, three general areas of concern emerged: Commerce, Intellectual Property, and Legacy. Our next forum with be in the Commerce track and we will be discussing the cost of creating, displaying, selling, buying, and owning art. Everyone interested in the future of art in SL is encouraged to attend.

In preparation for the forum, here are some questions to stimulate conversation:

  • What are the expenses related to creating, buying, selling, presenting, marketing?
  • Who pays for what?
  • Are expectations for income from selling art realistic?
  • Given the costs, can art be a viable business in SL?
  • What are some examples of successful commercial galleries (i.e., those which sell art)?
  • How are prices for art determined? (This may be a whole separate discussion.)

Here are some minimum fixed costs that somebody usually has to pay for art (or anything else) to exist:

In US dollars per month:

  • Full sim tier: $295.00
  • Full sim prims: 15000
  • Exchange rate: L$ 244.22 = US$ 1.00 (Lindex 14 Feb 2012)
  • The cost of one Linden is approx $0.004
  • Cost of one prim: $0.019666 (just under 2 cents)
  • Cost of one prim: 2.08 Lindens

A land owner pays for land whether the prims are used or not. Any unused prims are waste, adding to the cost of the used prims. E.g., if half the prims on a full sim are used, it still costs $295, thus effectively doubling the cost per prim used.

A typical rental parcel can cost 20%-40% above the actual cost to the sim owner, so a gallery owner renting a parcel at a premium price must add that cost to the prim cost.

2D art on a single prim is pretty cost effective. But a single object of 100 prims costs MINIMUM $1.96 (208 Lindens) per month to show. If a gallery owner takes a modest 20% of sales, that object will need to generate at least $9.80 (2393L) in sales just to cover its cost.

Similarly, the buyer not only pays the price of the object, but must also pay for the tier to display it. The 100 prim object will cost $23.60 per year to display.

SANDBOXES: Unless you are using Linden-owned sandboxes, someone is paying the tier to let you work in SL. If you own or rent land, that person is you. If you do not, that person is someone else. Do you know who that is?

First ArtGyro Meeting Transcript

The first meeting of ArtGyro was a great success. While the conversation was a bit chaotic, it was nonetheless substantive, with several core issues identified. The group that showed up was an excellent mix of artists, presenters and patrons (with many representing more than one of these roles).

The core issues I gleaned from the conversations are:

  1. Commerce. This might be further divided according to issues for:
    1. Content providers (i.e., artists). Questions about selling. pricing work. Relationships with presenters. Market value vs. instrinsic value. Charging SL prices for rl work. Connecting with venue owners. Alternative venues (showing work in music clubs, Marketplace, the possibility of a dedicated art marketing website, etc.).
    2. Presenters (i.e., galleries and other venues). Cost of land. Artist relationships.
  2. Intellectual Property. Digital rights management relates to everything else. A no-copy object may be priced higher as a “unique” object (though there’s no way to ensure that), or it may be priced lower because the next owner has fewer options. To ensure conservation when providing an object to an archive the archive should ideally have perms to copy and transfer.
  3. Legacy. Rowan Derryth and I share a strong feeling that the work done here should be conserved somehow. There was good consensus that this is a good idea, but there are a lot of issues to be resolved concerning how work is archived, who owns the archive, who pays the costs, etc.

We will have more meetings soon to discuss all of these issues further.

Transcript of chat log:

ArtGyro Meeting 11 Feb 2012 7:00AM SLT

In attendance (may not be complete)

  • Annie Milestone
  • Armany Thursday
  • Banrion Constantine
  • ChapTer Kronfeld
  • Dividni Shostakovich
  • Dyce Underwood
  • Freemason Magic
  • FreeWee Ling
  • Giovanna Cerise
  • Harter Fall
  • Honour McMillan
  • Mania Amat
  • Milly Sharple
  • Penelope Parx
  • pixel Reanimator
  • Popov Huldschinsky
  • Radagast Malaprop
  • rant Ugajin
  • Rowan Derryth
  • Secret Rage
  • shellina Winkler
  • Shepphard Galbraith
  • Sowa Mai
  • Zachh Cale


[07:04] Armany Thursday: this is a great outline and a great forum FreeWee….thanks so much for doing this!!

[07:08] FreeWee Ling: Welcome to ArtGyro everyone! Let’s get started.

[07:09] FreeWee Ling: I’m expecting a few others.

[07:09] FreeWee Ling: I did not publicize this widely. I wanted the conversation to be reasonably focused.

[07:10] FreeWee Ling: I was afraid too many people would be unmanageable.

[07:10] Rowan Derryth: lol good idea

[07:10] FreeWee Ling: But know that my intention is that these forums are open to everyone

[07:11] FreeWee Ling: This meeting has no agenda or designated end time. We’re here to talk and to make our concerns known and to learn from each other. I’m here as long as anyone wants to talk.

[07:11] FreeWee Ling: Please use text chat to talk. This is a public forum. Without objection, the chat log will be published on the ArtGyro website.

[07:12] FreeWee Ling: The essence of ArtGyro is openness. Not secrets. No decisions made behind closed doors, whatever that means.

[07:13] FreeWee Ling: I’m going to take the floor first for just a couple minutes to give you some context.

[07:13] FreeWee Ling: ArtGyro is a project to stimulate discussion about arts sustainability in SL. I chose the name because the metaphor of a gyroscope appeals to me as a device that provides stability by moving. The more kinetic energy that is imparted to it, the more difficult it is to knock it off its axis.

[07:13] Freemason Magic: nice

[07:13] FreeWee Ling: (Also because I needed to come up with a web domain on the spur of the moment.. heehee)

[07:14] Freemason Magic: hehe

[07:14] Freemason Magic: ok

[07:14] Dividni Shostakovich: Free, do you have the material you’re projecting available as a notecard?

[07:14] FreeWee Ling: Probably could have done better..

[07:14] Radagast Malaprop: good question

[07:14] FreeWee Ling: No I don’t but if you want I can make one real quick…

[07:15] Dividni Shostakovich: that would be useful I think

>>–misc. chatter removed–<<

[07:16] Freemason Magic: where they are about 5000 art galleries

[07:16] Freemason Magic: i need some guidance on how to talk to the art gallery owners

[07:17] Freemason Magic: to show the benefits of SL

[07:17] Freemason Magic: if anyone can help me i appreciated

>>–misc. chatter removed–<<

[07:20] FreeWee Ling: OK. Everyone should have the notecard. Don’t focus on that too much.

[07:20] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): thanks

[07:21] FreeWee Ling: We all know the issues and the stories. Important entities like UTSA, Pirats, Immersiva, Crossworlds, and others have either closed or been badly shaken in recent weeks and months due to budget problems. And some, like Flora Norenskiold’s NordanArt and fiona Blaylock’s artFiona gallery have closed for personal reasons that are not relevant to SL. We need to be clear on the distinctions. Things change for lots of reasons.

[07:22] FreeWee Ling: For example, UWA has been a preeminent art presenter for the last two years. The program continues, altered somewhat, this year. The changes are NOT due to budgetary issues, but primarily to priorities relating to JayJay’s job responsibilities and associated constraints on his time. Our monthly challenges are scaled back a lot, but the first two so far this year have been pretty remarkable. (Shameless plug: I encourage you to visit the current “Perfume” show and to consider submitting something on the theme of “Music” for next month. Deadline is March 1:)

[07:22] Rowan Derryth: 😀

[07:22] FreeWee Ling: In 2011, UWA entered into partnership and sponsorship agreements with many of the major art groups, including UTSA, Odyssey, Pirats, BOSL, CARP, NordanArt, and others. These relationships helped to stimulate interest in the challenges, but were also symbiotic. They lent their names and reputations to the UWA process and in doing so, the reputations of all parties, including UWA, benefitted. The associated groups could claim partnership with a major international academic institution, while UWA could claim support from the very best people working in SL art.

[07:23] FreeWee Ling: It’s these relationships that got me thinking about ArtGyro. The arts community in SL is generally united in its passion. But it seems to me that most people are pretty clueless about how to create a viable business model here. Surely there are opportunities here for people to work together symbiotically towards a common good.

[07:24] FreeWee Ling: We all know that SL is obscenely expensive. I am an arts administrator in rl. I work a regular job that doesn’t pay much. I am also a sim owner and have been on the brink of losing my private island a few times over the last four years. (Shameless plug #2: anyone interested in renting half a sim at cost, talk to me later 😉

[07:24] Rowan Derryth: lol

[07:25] Dyce Underwood: chuckles

[07:25] FreeWee Ling: Let’s see if we can work together to make our lives here more successful and less stressful.

[07:25] FreeWee Ling: This is an open forum. Please communicate in text chat. It is my intention to publish the chat log on the ArtGyro website so people who could not attend can learn and prepare for the next meeting. I also do not want to lose any really good ideas that get tossed out. Is there any objection?

[07:25] Honour McMillan: not here

[07:25] Secret Rage: nope…and good morning all 🙂

[07:25] Rowan Derryth: nope

[07:26] Mania (mania.amat): I have alittle one if i can

[07:26] FreeWee Ling: Yes?

[07:27] FreeWee Ling: Please try to focus on positive solutions, affirmative actions, successful examples, etc. This is not the place to bash Lindens or anyone else. Negativity is not productive.

[07:27] Mania (mania.amat): by my self, its would be necesary to determin where we are, and who can be touched, and i would avoid the Term of major Artist

[07:28] Mania (mania.amat): Web busisness go fast, and touch not only people interest in Art andmust live with them

[07:28] Mania (mania.amat): and can be introduced to it

[07:28] FreeWee Ling: I’m not sure I understand, Mania. Can anyone help?

[07:28] Rowan Derryth: I don’t either… maybe you mean you are concerned about privacy?

[07:29] Mania (mania.amat): well, i speake about the Matrix basic, Offer, Dimand and Environnement

[07:29] Radagast Malaprop: it’s hard to make money in art if no one wats to pay for it?

[07:29] Rowan Derryth: This is an objection to the chatlog being posted on the web?

[07:29] Mania (mania.amat): we are on the web,

[07:29] Armany Thursday: very true Rad…lol

[07:30] Dividni Shostakovich: well, to be honest, there may be issues which are best kept within a small group

[07:30] Mania (mania.amat): i said what i needed to say i will shutup for don’t take teh speake to other

[07:30] Radagast Malaprop: in bad economic times, entertainment is one of the first costs people cut

[07:31] Armany Thursday: nods in agreement

[07:31] Banrion Constantine: Alienating people just getting involved or who do not consider themselves major artists?

[07:31] Rowan Derryth: I think we are just trying to understand you Mania, but perhaps if there is consensus we can move forward, that readdress the question at the end.. when we see what we’ve discussed?

[07:31] Banrion Constantine: Is that what you mean?

[07:31] Armany Thursday: the poor economy has devasted RL galleries as well though

[07:31] FreeWee Ling: This is an open forum. I’m letting you know that you have no expectation of privacy here and that I intend to publish the chat log in order to serve the mission of ArtGyro. If anyone has a problem with that, they should probably not participate. A core tenet of ArtGyro is that too many decisions are being made by too few people.

[07:32] Quan Lavender: we are talking about small amounts compared to rl, which almost everyone can afford

[07:32] Armany Thursday: and artists incomes..

[07:32] Mania (mania.amat): im speaking with my marketting rl eyes,

[07:32] Rowan Derryth: Thanks FreeWee, I am find with that… I think we may be straying from agreeing with that point.

[07:32] Rowan Derryth: fine*

[07:33] SHєקק (shepphard.galbraith): Post this on the web by all means 🙂

[07:33] FreeWee Ling: Yes. We’re moving into the discussion itself. Can we agree on the chatlog Mania?

[07:34] Mania (mania.amat): i quite agree

[07:34] FreeWee Ling: ok.

[07:34] Mania (mania.amat): will eb helpfull for have a think afterward

[07:34] FreeWee Ling: ty

[07:34] FreeWee Ling: Please try to focus on positive solutions, affirmative actions, successful examples, etc. This is not the place to bash Lindens or anyone else. Negativity is not productive.

[07:34] FreeWee Ling: The topics may shift as we proceed, but we need to stay on task. I will be the benevolent overlord here. I may interrupt a thread to redirect the conversation to ensure everyone is heard and that we don’t stray too far.

[07:35] FreeWee Ling: This is a public forum. Whatever direction it takes will be determined by your interests and your willingness to pursue them. I’m just raising questions to stimulate dialogue. Take a look at these questions and tell me what you want to talk about. What do you think is the most pressing issue for the survivability of art in SL? Let’s make a list.

[07:36] Sowa Mai: a way to make money off of the art, providing income to pay for sims

[07:36] FreeWee Ling: There are a couple of shared media screens. One behind me and one opposite. I’ll be adding text as we go along.

[07:37] Rowan Derryth: Well personally, while I think the financial part certainly underlies the problem, my own worry is about access and preservation. SL is only viable if the larger art world starts to take it seriously as a platform.

[07:37] Rowan Derryth: But perhaps that is a discussion for another time.

[07:37] Honour McMillan: Some of you know me and know I’m a “fan” not an artist but I think the issue is really multiple issues. Gallery owners/artists (and let’s avoid the amateur vs professional please?/exhibitors have unique situations – at least in my opinion – and perhaps require different approaches

[07:37] Radagast Malaprop: i think SL is an inherently creative space, and there are few barriers to creating art and getting it seen here (by existing residents)

[07:37] Secret Rage: i did have a thought recently…there are some who will pay for art but they don’t know where to look for it~maybe some sort of a collective site where pieces could be shown/listed…would be helpful

[07:37] FreeWee Ling: If you look at the notecard I shared, there were some hard numbers about the cost of prims.

[07:38] Armany Thursday: well i really don’t see a profitability opportunity in SL….unless one has no overhead…

[07:38] Rowan Derryth: I agree with Armany… I think sustainability is a better notion

[07:38] Secret Rage: if there is one already…i am unaware of it

[07:38] Armany Thursday: but then …..i really don’t see how it is ethical to charge if you have no overhead…

[07:38] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Zachh Cale (16m)

[07:38] Radagast Malaprop: there used to be an art gallery lists maintained by Sasun

[07:39] Radagast Malaprop: but the list became huge

[07:39] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): still is

[07:39] Radagast Malaprop: still is? good 🙂

[07:39] Dividni Shostakovich: yes, it is

[07:39] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Radagast Malaprop (18m)

[07:39] FreeWee Ling: A good point honour. Do we need different track for different users? Artists vs, gallery owners?

[07:39] Rowan Derryth: I think the role of ‘finding’ art is well in place, through groups.. a central space/gallery might be very problematic

[07:40] Mania (mania.amat): that could create an other mainstream wys of think a very dangerous direction lol

[07:40] Secret Rage: i guess i was thinking more of a website…where we could all add pieces for sale

[07:40] Sowa Mai: What do you think is the most pressing issue for the survivability of art in SL? Let’s make a list.

[07:40] SHєקק (shepphard.galbraith): Im sure many of you could work with music venue owners — peole stand there for an hour or more

[07:40] Sowa Mai: money

[07:40] Rowan Derryth: I think having everyone at the ‘circle’ is a good idea FreeWee… not all gallery owners get artists concerns, and vice versa

[07:40] Radagast Malaprop: a new search category in SL search 🙂

[07:40] Quan Lavender: Regarding the prims, I think more art could be sold, when artists more consider the number of prims in their artwork. They should learn to reduce the no. of prims as other builders do. That enhances the chances of sales

[07:40] Dividni Shostakovich: in theory people can actually use the Marketplace for that … though it’s pretty terrible

[07:40] FreeWee Ling: You can sell art on Marketplace?

[07:41] Quan Lavender: oh yes, Bryn and Rebeca do

[07:41] Dividni Shostakovich: yes, but I’ve never looked at how it’s organized

[07:41] Rowan Derryth: Sure, why not? It is content like anything else

[07:42] FreeWee Ling: The central issue is cost of prims. Prims cost money. Who pays for them?

[07:42] SHєקק (shepphard.galbraith): where do people gather ???

[07:42] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): the owner 🙂 pays for it

[07:42] Quan Lavender: The art buyer at the end pays

[07:42] FreeWee Ling: The LAND owner pays.

[07:43] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): the buyer pays for the art, not the cost of it

[07:43] Mania (mania.amat): the Role play Sims pays

[07:43] Armany Thursday: well prim creation costs money…prim display costs money…..

[07:43] Sowa Mai: budget prims

[07:43] FreeWee Ling: In a gallery, the gallery owner pays for the prims. They may get a commission off sales, but how often doe that result in a profit at the end of the month?

[07:43] Quan Lavender: that is not the right thinking. The art buyer wants to have the art not in the inventory

[07:44] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): never, the Gallery owner does it for the ‘art’ and love

[07:44] Zachh (zachh.cale): i don’t usually use “art” and “profit” in the same sentence lol

[07:44] Banrion Constantine: so in the end, the art buyer also has to pay for prims to show the art.

[07:44] FreeWee Ling: A 100 prim object costs $24 US in prim cost just to exist inworld.

[07:44] FreeWee Ling: per year

[07:44] Rowan Derryth: I don’t know Quan.. I have a collection in my inventory that I rotate, knowing I can’t show it all at once. And I tend to not think about prim cost when I buy, but the work. Just another perspective.

[07:44] Banrion Constantine: Thanks, Zachh. 🙂

[07:44] Secret Rage: agreed Zachh

[07:44] Armany Thursday: exactly Zachh….LOL

[07:44] Rowan Derryth: But I might be unusual.

[07:44] Rowan Derryth smiles at Zachh

[07:45] Quan Lavender: yes, me too Rowan, but what about primy artworks?

[07:45] Dividni Shostakovich: well, not having many prims available in my home, I *always* worry about the prim cost of the art

[07:46] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): that is quite right 🙂

[07:46] FreeWee Ling: Yes. The fact is there’s a limit. Even if you own a whole sim, there’s a limit. The prim economy dictates that there is a limit and a cost. This is an issue for creating new art as well as preserving and dispaying legacy art.

[07:47] Armany Thursday: seems to me….having a gallery in SL is a philanthropical endeavor pure and simple…..

[07:47] Secret Rage: yes indeed

[07:47] Quan Lavender: but is that fair?

[07:47] FreeWee Ling: Who is making a profit in SL art?

[07:47] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): that is very right, believe me 🙂

[07:47] Harter Fall: Yes SLs “shadow” currency is peims!

[07:47] Rowan Derryth: But you might argue that is an issue in RL too.. a gallery is only so big, the bulk of collections sit in ‘inventory’, and there is a cost to keeping them – and they don’t even get to sell copies, except for the gift shop

[07:47] Harter Fall: prims*

[07:47] Rowan Derryth: I don’t think that is a problem that will change.

[07:47] Quan Lavender: the artists and visistors have fun, the gallery owners pay?

[07:48] Secret Rage: nods Rowan

[07:48] Armany Thursday: funny thing is….we all participate in this voluntarily….nobody forces us to create or have galleries within SL…

[07:48] FreeWee Ling: The difference from rl is tha ratio. SL sims cost real money. Art is sold for Lindens.

[07:48] Rowan Derryth: Honestly? You pay for an exhibit by having a BLOWOUT opening with a fat tip jar. Hopefully you get featured, and traffic continues. You’ll never make rent through selling work.

[07:49] Dividni Shostakovich: it’s probably true that most gallery owners do it for the love, but does that mean artists don’t need to worry about their sruvival?

[07:49] Dividni Shostakovich: *survival

[07:49] Quan Lavender: true Dividni

[07:49] Rowan Derryth: But isn’t it comparable Freewee? Linden ARE real money, after all.

[07:50] Armany Thursday: well artists have the ability to own/operate their own gallery/studio sims…

[07:50] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): very much so

[07:50] Secret Rage: i do understand all the concerns over money…truly i do…but in my case~i will still make my things if i never see a dime…

[07:50] Armany Thursday: and experience the costs for themselves LOL

[07:50] Secret Rage: i think a lot of us feel that way

[07:50] Banrion Constantine: Agrees, Rage.

[07:50] Rowan Derryth nods

[07:50] FreeWee Ling: I pay $295 a month for may sim. I can buy a fine piece of art for $4

[07:51] FreeWee Ling: I think that’s a decision we all make. Is what we do here, either as a creator or presenter, viable? Do we have to make money on it to keep doing it? And is that realistic?

[07:51] Harter Fall: Exactly Freewee thats one of the main problems!!!!

[07:52] FreeWee Ling: I think most people don’t have an expectation of their work covering their costs. Am I wrong?

[07:52] Armany Thursday: SL is viable as a passion…..not as a profitable business opportunity

[07:52] Harter Fall: Noone really buys art atm. And if you look at the arts prices… thats more of a joke.

[07:52] Zachh (zachh.cale): yes perhaps for a very few

[07:52] Secret Rage: tho i would love to have a full sim…i content myself with the near 4600 prim my plot gives me…and i am fortunate and/or lucky enough to be able to break even…

[07:53] Rowan Derryth: Well, you might ponder the deeper issue then, beyond money… where does your art collection go? Who really owns it? What happens to the work of SL goes down for good? Where is your investment (IF you view it that way) then?

[07:53] Quan Lavender: And if one decides it has to make money, one should accept some restrictions for the market

[07:53] Secret Rage: i thought of adding art pieces into my stores listings on the market…but how do we decide what to charge?

[07:53] Honour McMillan: if a piece of art is going to go for a high price then I would expect there not be unlimited copies :p

[07:54] Rowan Derryth nods at Honour

[07:54] Quan Lavender: true

[07:54] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): if it art, it is unique

[07:54] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): only one piece

[07:54] Secret Rage: i have one client i build for…i let her determine what she was willing to pay for one of a kind pieces…fortunately she has been generous with me

[07:55] Armany Thursday: Popov…there is absolutely no way to guarantee that within SL

[07:55] Secret Rage: but to set a price? i wouldnt know where to start

[07:55] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): unfortunately, it is too true

[07:55] FreeWee Ling: I think that’s a critical question, Rowan. I’d like to pursue the intellectual property and legacy issues. They’re all connected. But let’s focus on the economics for the moment.

[07:55] Armany Thursday: “one of a kind” cannot be guaranteed to the buyer….

[07:55] Rowan Derryth: I disagree that ‘if it is art, it is unique, only one piece’. Prints, etchings, photographs, are all reproducible media and art

[07:55] Rowan Derryth: You have to think of virtual art in the same manner

[07:56] FreeWee Ling: Is price an issue for sustainability?

[07:56] Armany Thursday: unless the artist sells the copyright along with the art

[07:56] Penelope Parx: me too i disagreed

[07:56] Quan Lavender: no, but a limited edition…

[07:56] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): yes, they are reproduction, hence copies

[07:56] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): call it art if you want

[07:56] Rowan Derryth: No, a print of an etching is an original. Every print you pull is an original, and yes, I call it art for sure, as do most

[07:57] Rowan Derryth: Just a FRIENDLY Fyi 🙂

[07:57] FreeWee Ling: Let’s hold back a little on the intellectual property issues for now. It’s important, but we need to stay on track.

[07:57] Honour McMillan: Rowan I agree but let’s look at the fashion industry for a moment – Eshi dressed go for a few hundred linden – when she does a limited or one of then tens of thousands – even knowing in the back of your mind somebody can copybot it they pay that

[07:57] Rowan Derryth nods at FreeWee

[07:57] Honour McMillan: *dressed

[07:57] Honour McMillan: sigh

[07:57] Honour McMillan gets more coffee

[07:57] Quan Lavender: exactly Honour

[07:57] Rowan Derryth: Good point Honour.. and I definitely think there is a place for unique work and prices that reflect it.

[07:58] Honour McMillan: or accept that you have to sell a lot at a low price

[07:58] Honour McMillan: it’s just the way the market works

[07:58] Armany Thursday: i would never represent something as one of a kind in SL….

[07:58] FreeWee Ling: We can have meetings to address more specific issues. We’re here to get a sense of what is important for sustainability. This is just a start. Let’s not get into minutiae

[07:58] Harter Fall: On the other hand we are also kind of digital artists and the uniqueness is different with that

[07:58] Rowan Derryth: But reproducability of virtual work is a big part of its existence, and also offers a wonderful aspect too it.. amazing art that is affordable to the masses is an idea I LOVE

[07:58] Mania (mania.amat): its teh way you figure it Armany

[07:58] Rowan Derryth: There is, to me at least, and upside to the financial aspect being unreliable

[07:59] Rowan Derryth: Exactly Harter

[07:59] Armany Thursday: i am a stickler LOL

[08:00] FreeWee Ling: Is there anyone in SL art who is doing it right? Is paying the bills and is making everyone happy?

[08:00] Zachh (zachh.cale): Speaking of sustainability, I’d still love to see a linden museum established, where select shows and art could be shown after it “graduates” the existing gallery/artspace system – a museum where it’s an honor to be asked as an artist, to place his/her installations/artwork for indefinite period of time. At least some works could be continually shared without burdening existing system

[08:00] Quan Lavender: Eliza I would say

[08:00] Popov  ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): well I am paying the bills and hope to make the buyers happy 🙂

[08:00] Armany Thursday: that’s interesting Zachh……

[08:01] Rowan Derryth high fives Zachh

[08:01] Quan Lavender: haha

[08:01] Dividni Shostakovich: Yes Eliza is making it work — and gets flak for it too

[08:01] Rowan Derryth: THAT is what I’m lobbying for

[08:01] Zachh (zachh.cale): yayyyyyyy!!!

[08:01] Rowan Derryth: Eliza gets a LOT of crap, which is a pity

[08:01] Secret Rage: but there again…it’s a bill to be paid~granted, not by us…but to be paid still

[08:01] Rowan Derryth: Well, the UWA, because they have a sponsor institution

[08:01] FreeWee Ling: Yay, Zachh. I agree. However, I think any solution to any of our issues is not going to rely on the reasonable actions of LL.

[08:02] Harter Fall: Yes zachh! A museum for outstanding things ppl love like the AM Radio things.

[08:02] Armany Thursday: agreed FreeWee

[08:02] Rowan Derryth: I don’t know the ins and outs for Dividni and Zachh, but they get it right to me

[08:02] Zachh (zachh.cale): yeah we can’t depend on LL but look where we are sitting now

[08:02] Mania (mania.amat): also for speake about economy, that would be needed, the elements who compose it and what we want

[08:02] Rowan Derryth: (I wrote about that very thing not too long ago… hope you read it)

[08:03] FreeWee Ling whispers: Yes. Zachh, who pays for ArtScreamer and projectZ? Is that mostly out of your pocket? Also Davidni?

[08:03] Rowan Derryth: The museum thing I mean

[08:03] Zachh (zachh.cale): the possibility is there because are at LEA now, and if LL does wake up and see the marketability of it, like some suggest amradio, or ANYONE for that matter

[08:03] Dividni Shostakovich: ty Rowan — but I should point out that one of the reasons I survive is because I’m on half a homestead sim

[08:03] Rowan Derryth: Yes, and btw I don’t mean to ask about any financial things people aren’t comfortable sharing, not to put you on the spot

[08:04] FreeWee Ling: Agreed

[08:04] Zachh (zachh.cale): sorry rowan missed your line of thought, scrolling up 🙂

[08:04] Zachh (zachh.cale): how we do what?

[08:04] Rowan Derryth: The work you guys display is NOT for sale, to the best of my knowledge, and which is why I think what you do is awesome… it takes that aspect out of the equation for the artist, however, that also can be a problem

[08:05] Harter Fall: Same here Divini. I only can break even with my gallery and uploads cos im on very affordable land. (thanks to penelope)

[08:05] Dividni Shostakovich: no, just point out that one makes trade-offs in order to stay viable

[08:05] Secret Rage: agrees

[08:05] Rowan Derryth: Just that I thought you were getting it right Zachh.. and that I wrote about the museum thing recently, related to Immersiva closing

[08:05] Zachh (zachh.cale): ahhhh got you 🙂

[08:05] FreeWee Ling: Anyone know if LEA is going to allow the Pirats artists to sell work?

[08:05] Zachh (zachh.cale): we totally support artist if they want to sell items at installations, can’t speak for div

[08:05] Armany Thursday: oh gosh i thought it was non profit?

[08:05] Dyce Underwood: and sometimes that trade off is realizing it is not profitable and doing it because one loves it and wants to spread the beauty in SL

[08:06] Harter Fall: * Objects that allow payments of any kind are not permitted on LEA land. This includes vendors selling objects, objects set for sale, and tip jars. You may, however, give out landmarks to other places where your art is available for purchase, or other places where people can tip or donate money.

[08:06] Quan Lavender: Rowan, for that museum art must be transfer, otherwise the art gets lost with the left of avatars

[08:06] Dividni Shostakovich: pretty certain they would’nt, if they ever did

[08:06] Zachh (zachh.cale): yes Dyce 🙂

[08:06] Dividni Shostakovich: *if Pirats ever did

[08:06] Zachh (zachh.cale): Quan but why does it need to be transfer?

[08:06] Mania (mania.amat): Why do we speake about Art and Artist ?

[08:06] Rowan Derryth: Yep QUan, this was a big part of that conversation

[08:06] FreeWee Ling: I’ve bought several pieces at Pirats shows.

[08:06] Quan Lavender: Yes, Harter. The smart ones have shops in the marketplace 😉

[08:06] Zachh (zachh.cale): It’s not perfect, but can’t the artist at least agree to setup at a museum?

[08:06] Rowan Derryth: We had a good debate in the comments thread about copyright too

[08:07] Zachh (zachh.cale): if the artist sets it up with a curator, it’s there

[08:07] Zachh (zachh.cale): if the artist gets mad and takes it down, so be it lol

[08:07] Zachh (zachh.cale): we can’t control everything but do we need to? it’s still an honor to show

[08:07] Rowan Derryth: No, you want it to be in a museum collection, Zachh, that is tricky…

[08:07] Quan Lavender: GETTING mad? *lol

[08:07] Zachh (zachh.cale): well not replace existing system

[08:07] Rowan Derryth: THink of artists who have left SL.. you still want to show their work in the future

[08:07] Zachh (zachh.cale): lol Quan

[08:08] Zachh (zachh.cale): yes Rowan but if they setup at the museum, and leave it there, it’s still there

[08:08] FreeWee Ling: OK, I’m seeing some trends here. That’s what I was going for. We need meetings to talk about intellectual property issues. We need meetings to talk about conservation and legacy issues. What else?

[08:08] Rowan Derryth: What if you need to move it, or it breaks and you need to re-rez

[08:08] Zachh (zachh.cale): we don’t need 100% control to have something

[08:08] Secret Rage: i dunno…i kinda feel if they got in a snit and “took their ball home”….i dont really care too much

[08:08] Armany Thursday: well the landowner can return the work…

[08:09] Mania (mania.amat): Why do we speake about Art and Artist ? if i can repeat my question ?

[08:09] Zachh (zachh.cale): it’s sort of like, if we can’t have 100% we can’t have anything…. hopefully not an all or nothing

[08:09] Rowan Derryth: To me, for a museum collection, the museum would have to have perms… sorry this is a bit too nitty gritty probably 🙂

[08:09] FreeWee Ling: Perhaps a nonprofit trust?

[08:09] Rowan Derryth: I wouldn’t want to return a work to an artist that has left.. then the work is lost

[08:09] Rowan Derryth: Yes FreeWee

[08:09] Harter Fall: We also need a meeting about originality with the inelectual property one!

[08:09] Rowan Derryth: Well, if I’m being totally honest, I want a virtual Tate or Guggenheim…

[08:10] FreeWee Ling: I would not want LL to be responsible for it.

[08:10] Zachh (zachh.cale): well that’s an intereseting point Rowan, and probably a show stopper for some, but I still think that scenario exists now with galleries/artpsaces

[08:10] Zachh (zachh.cale): it just is what it is

[08:10] Penelope Parx: There is a way to have permissions…for a museum…is to buy art 🙂

[08:10] Rowan Derryth: And I’ve talked to a former GUggenheim curator who tried to start it, but SL is already looked down upon by the mainstream, and that is only getting worse

[08:10] Zachh (zachh.cale): lol penelope, touche

[08:10] Armany Thursday: yes Penelope

[08:10] Rowan Derryth: THAT is a huge question for viability…

[08:10] Penelope Parx: and i play to be penny parxenneim since my beginning

[08:10] Penelope Parx: lol

[08:10] Rowan Derryth: Penelope, I TOTALLY AGREE

[08:11] Harter Fall: lol

[08:11] Armany Thursday: Museums make acquisitons RL….they should SL as well

[08:11] Rowan Derryth: It is a matter though of the work’s perms

[08:11] Penelope Parx: in that way… my museum is free

[08:11] Secret Rage: i think someday they will

[08:11] Rowan Derryth: Yes, yes, I hope I didn’t imply otherwise.. we were just talking about perms, not purchasing

[08:11] Dividni Shostakovich: Museums do need funding however

[08:11] Secret Rage: rl and sl

[08:11] Armany Thursday: yes… ; ))

[08:12] Rowan Derryth: Yes, museums would have the same costs, however there IS grant money for virtual/electronic initiatives..

[08:12] Penelope Parx: i have a long term project…

[08:12] Rowan Derryth: But can we convince the Tate Modern that SL isn’t just for pron? 😉

[08:12] Rowan Derryth: Actually, Tate Modern might like that, lol

[08:12] Honour McMillan: Secret has a good point – this is not a mature market on the grid – and there’s an opportunity to mold it for the future – starting now with the different aspects of the art world

[08:12] Dividni Shostakovich: true Rowan

[08:12] Penelope Parx: about to make it sustenable

[08:13] FreeWee Ling: Just takes the right proposal to the right people. Use UWA as an example. We had 858 entries by 242 artists from 24 countries this last year.

[08:13] FreeWee Ling: We can document it.

[08:13] Zachh (zachh.cale): true FreeWee

[08:13] Rowan Derryth: I agree. And I think there is opportunity for that

[08:14] Rowan Derryth: But in terms of access and sustainability.. that is a positive direction

[08:14] FreeWee Ling: Let’s talk about that. We need a subcommittee for legacy issues. There is crossover with IP issues.

[08:15] Rowan Derryth: That is the aspect I’d most like to be involved with

[08:15] Rowan Derryth: Economics are important to that, but it isn’t my personal passion, and I’m a math idiot, lol

[08:15] Zachh (zachh.cale): I’d like to find out more about that too, perhaps it doesn’t have to be all or nothing, perhaps a compromise there somewhere

[08:15] Dividni Shostakovich: yay math!

[08:15] Armany Thursday: lol

[08:15] Rowan Derryth: hee hee

[08:15] Zachh (zachh.cale): lol

[08:16] FreeWee Ling: math who?

[08:16] Dividni Shostakovich: math media

[08:16] Dividni Shostakovich: 😀

[08:16] FreeWee Ling: lol

[08:16] FreeWee Ling: good one

[08:16] Penelope Parx: lol

[08:16] Zachh (zachh.cale): rimshot

[08:17] Dividni Shostakovich: on that note — unfortunately I have to leave, I’m going to the HD broadcast of the Metropolitan Opera

[08:17] Zachh (zachh.cale): ok Div!

[08:17] Zachh (zachh.cale): gtsy

[08:17] Dividni Shostakovich: thanks Free for organizing this

[08:17] Armany Thursday: nic Div….enjoy ㋡

[08:17] Dyce Underwood: Ohh nice Dividni. Have a great time

[08:17] Dividni Shostakovich: I look forward to reading the log

[08:19] FreeWee Ling: OK, I’m going to distill al lot of this conversation and see if I can identify the main concerns. We can have different meetings to address different issues.

[08:19] Harter Fall: yes

[08:19] Penelope Parx: yes

[08:19] Armany Thursday: ㋡

[08:19] FreeWee Ling: This has been a good start. I expected it to be a bit of a free for all, and that’s fine.

[08:19] Zachh (zachh.cale): thanks FreeWee, I think this is a great use of our time and this sim!

[08:19] Secret Rage: one topic per meeting would be a lot more useful

[08:20] Rowan Derryth: Agreed!

[08:20] Secret Rage: easier to stay on topic

[08:20] Rowan Derryth: Can I make another suggestion?

[08:20] Harter Fall: ty much for all the effort freewee. this here is long overdue

[08:20] Zachh (zachh.cale): yes

[08:20] FreeWee Ling: Yes. We’ll do that. We’ll also try different times.

[08:20] Secret Rage: 🙂 yayyyy FREEEEEEE

[08:20] Rowan Derryth: I LOVE the free conversation.. but if possible (and this is a lot of work I know), questions in advance that we could prepare thoughts for?

[08:20] Zachh (zachh.cale): and great site

[08:20] Rowan Derryth: Maybe share in turn?

[08:20] Zachh (zachh.cale): great idea

[08:20] Secret Rage: nice idea Rowan

[08:21] FreeWee Ling: Yes, we can do all that.

[08:21] Zachh (zachh.cale): hopefully with some time for free-for-all too

[08:21] Rowan Derryth: Then we can converse from there, but these things get hard in chat, lol

[08:21] Zachh (zachh.cale): cause some of are chaos driven lol

[08:21] Rowan Derryth: Exactly

[08:21] Rowan Derryth: hee hee

[08:21] FreeWee Ling: Perhaps Rowan can chair the legacy meetings. I’m not attached to being in charge of anything.

[08:21] Rowan Derryth: ACK! heheh

[08:21] FreeWee Ling: Heehee.

[08:22] Secret Rage: grins…<<<— surrvives on Chaos…has it for breakfast

[08:22] FreeWee Ling: We’ll work in it together, Rowan 🙂

[08:22] Rowan Derryth: Um, I’d LOVE to, but I’m not sure I could take that on soon.. maybe I can co-chair with Zachh or something 😉

[08:22] Rowan Derryth: Ok! lol

[08:22] Zachh (zachh.cale): lol secret munch munch

[08:22] Secret Rage: hehe

[08:22] Zachh (zachh.cale): i’d be willing rowan

[08:22] Rowan Derryth: cool

[08:22] FreeWee Ling: Anyone have special passion for IP issues?

[08:22] Rowan Derryth: Hopefully I’ll have a bit more time by next month

[08:23] Secret Rage: hum a bar….i’ll see if i know it Free 😉

[08:23] FreeWee Ling: OK, well we’ll work on that. lol. It occurs to me there’s a legal group in SL we might be able to consult/

[08:23] Secret Rage: let me know if i can help you…on a serious note~

[08:24] Zachh (zachh.cale): wow great idea

[08:24] Rowan Derryth: Oh, and maybe I should say, although I don’t think it makes a difference, I’m an advisor on the LEA now, but I have NO IDEA what that means.. and I imagine some of you might be on it too…

[08:24] Rowan Derryth: I couldn’t remember if Divi was

[08:24] Rowan Derryth: I haven’t been to a meeting or anything yet, and I don’t vote, lol

[08:25] FreeWee Ling: They asked me, but I told them I wouldn’t do it if I couldn’t vote.. heehee.

[08:25] Rowan Derryth: Hahaha

[08:25] Secret Rage: 🙂

[08:25] Penelope Parx: 🙂

[08:25] Zachh (zachh.cale): they vote??

[08:25] Zachh (zachh.cale): 🙂

[08:25] Rowan Derryth: It was the opposite for me, since my time is short.. but my understanding is you are an advisor first so they came make sure you aren’t crazy 😉

[08:25] Rowan Derryth: I admire that logic

[08:25] Secret Rage: buttttttttt

[08:25] FreeWee Ling: I wouldn’t have a chance.

[08:25] Secret Rage: grins…we all ARE

[08:26] Rowan Derryth drools a little

[08:26] Secret Rage: “no vote for you!!!”

[08:26] Secret Rage: hehe

[08:26] Secret Rage: ok all

[08:26] FreeWee Ling: Anyone who seeks office should automatically be banned from getting it.

[08:26] Secret Rage: i have to jet

[08:26] Secret Rage: yessssssss

[08:26] FreeWee Ling: Thank you all. This has been great 🙂

[08:27] FreeWee Ling: I’ll get the transcript on the website. Be sure you join the group.

[08:27] Sowa Mai: thanks free

[08:27] Banrion Constantine: Thank you Free. Good meeting. Much fodder for thought.

[08:27] Zachh (zachh.cale): this is a great group of people, hope it continues!

[08:28] Harter Fall: ty much freewee. looking forward to new conferences 🙂


Arts Sustainability in SL

ArtGyro will have its first public meeting on Saturday, 11 February, at 7:00 AM SLT in the ArtGyro sim (LEA18).  If you are unable to attend at that time, please join the ArtGyro group to be kept informed of future meetings. This is just the beginning!

Anyone interested in attending the meeting (or several) to discuss the current state and future of art in SL, please join the ArtGyro group, come to the meeting, and/or contact FreeWee Ling.

The ArtGyro group is intended to address sustainability in the SL art world. There have been a lot of high profile crises recently. Let us find out together whether these incidents are symptoms of a larger systemic problem or are just coincidences that happened to occur in rapid succession.

I would also like for us to talk about positive actions that can be taken to stabilize the art community. This is not to be a Linden-bashing fest or a place to vent. We are a community of creative people. We know the problems. Let’s find ways to make it work. Please join ArtGyro and drop me a note with your thoughts.

-FreeWee Ling

Shed your tiers!
Art Refugee Camp at ArtGyro LEA sim:

Issues and Questions for Your Consideration


  • What is arts sustainability?
  • Is it important?
  • Is it possible?
  • What are examples of sustainable arts communities in SL?
  • What are examples of sustainable arts business plans in SL?
  • Cost of a 100 prim object: $23.60/year.


  • Should we be concerned about the ephemeral nature of virtual art?
  • How can we archive work?
  • Is documentation sufficient, or do we also need preservation of the digital artifacts?
  • Should all work be preserved?
  • 3D graphic art in SL is crude compared to dedicated rendering software. Anything that exists here is going to be of lower “quality” (as defined by rendering detail) than what can be made elsewhere. Does that matter?
  • Quality is improving. If it reaches the level of a dedicated gaming engine, will we look back at what we’re doing now and think it was all pretty awful? If so, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Strategic Relationships:

  • Can we be stronger and more creative together than separately?
  • Are there opportunities to collaborate or share resources that could be mutually beneficial?
  • What kind of relationships can be mutually beneficial?
  • Artist<>Artist
  • Artist<>Venue
  • Venue<>Venue

Artist<>Venue Relations:

  • What do you expect from each other?
  • Artist: Do you understand the cost/value of having a place to show your work?
  • Gallery owner: Are you motivated by business or by passion? (Either is ok, but be clear about it and make sure your exhibitors know what you want out of the relationship.)

The Value of Art:

  • Your time and talent as an artist is valuable and is worth paying rl money for, but the virtual product is not as valuable as a rl product (no cost to reproduce infinite perfect copies, there is a cost to the owner to commit prims to showing then, they can only be seen in SL, etc.) .
  • How do you reconcile the difference?
  • What are alternative ways to generate income from creative work?
  • There is agreement that the ability to create and show work easily is part of what makes virtual work engaging for the artist. If there is almost no hope of achieving a professional income from the work, is it still worth doing?

Case Study: Pirats Arts Network

The SL art world was rocked yesterday by the announcement that the Pirats Art Network, a French-based international consortium of artists that is arguably one of the most important art presenters in SL, would be closing. In the last 24 hours or so there have been numerous efforts mounted to find support for Pirats.

Apparently the group has been struggling with Linden Lab for the last year or so to get some resolution about support. The Pirats organizers (Nathalie Gobé (merlina.rokocoko) and Jean-Marc Larroque (newbab.zsigmond)) were counting on some kind of special dispensation from Linden Lab based on some fairly sketchy correspondence. It seems clear to me from the interactions that their contacts from LL were trying to direct the inquiries towards the Linden Endowment for the Arts for a solution. Jean-Marc was trying to convince them that Pirats was a vital marketing engine for SL which would be a serious loss to the company. Unfortunately LEA was barely functional at the beginnings of this conversation, and Jean-Marc appeared to be concerned about rumored content limitations that have traditionally come with LL-sponsored resources. He seemed to want to negotiate a separate partnership agreement with LL apart from LEA, but LL had most likely determined that their entire partnership in the arts would be LEA and any further discussions should be negotiated between Pirats and the LEA committee.

This attempt to appeal to LL directly is resonant with Bryn Oh’s letter. As I noted in that case study, LL has plenty of reasons to avoid giving individual users or groups direct support. Following the initial panic stages of the last couple of days, it seems there is still much anxiety about the resolution of the situation. Pirats has followed Bryn’s example and started a crowdfunding page on IdieGoGo, which seems like a very sensible step. There is also a petition being circulated by Asmita Duranjaya on behalf of Pirats to get LEA to commit a sim for use by Pirats. I suspect if Pirats had applied for an LEA land grant for a specific purpose, they would likely have been given one in the normal process. I’m not sure a petition is a useful approach at this point. It might support an application if Pirats decides to submit one.

It will be interesting to see whether LEA wants to set a precedent by committing resources to the ongoing support of a private presenting organization, and whether Pirats would accept the limitations of the LEA land grant terms. These are all questions that arose very early in discussions of the role of LEA and are now becoming highly relevant.


Case Study: Bryn Oh

N.B. Case studies are generally situations in flux. Conditions may change rapidly and significantly shortly after publication.

Bryn Oh is fortunate to have been the recipient of tremendous resources to allow her to continue making art. She has had extremely generous patrons who are so impressed with her work (and with her personally) that they have provided entire sims for her to play with for extended periods of time. The nuts and bolts reality is that a full sim in SL costs $295US every month. There are few individual artists who could ever dream of getting such philanthropic support.

Bryn is a brilliant artist who is using the medium to its fullest extents to express a unique vision with unsurpassed imagination and technical expertise. She is also an eminently approachable person who is eager to share her excitement and experience. This adds up to a highly marketable package. But as most artists know, being good is not enough to sustain support. You also have to be constantly looking for opportunities to network. You have to state your case to anyone who might be able to help and you have to be ready to pounce when the possibility of an opportunity arises. Being a very good and very professional artist will tend to attract opportunities, but you can’t count on people with resources to come knocking at your door. (It’s not enough to wish you could win the lottery. You have to buy a ticket.)

On 11 December 2011 Bryn’s new project “Standby” was slated to be open on her Immersiva sim. The sim was unexpectedly closed. Gone. Not even on the map. It’s not clear what happened to her patron, Dusan Writer, who seems to have fallen completely off the grid, which is peculiar given Dusan’s formerly high profile in SL, especially with the Metanomics group. Bryn’s sim (as well as one provided to Kiana Writer for her remarkable “MadPea” productions) had been supported for the last couple of years at least by Dusan.

On 23 December Bryn blogged simply, “Still no word on the fate of Immersiva.” And on 9 January she published a letter sent to Linden Lab pleading for support for her and Kiana’s sims.

I found the letter to be interesting in its desperation. The essential point that many people don’t seem to grasp is that Linden Lab has no interest whatever in supporting content or communities in SL. That’s not what their business is about. They are providing a technology platform. What we as users do with that platform is entirely up to us. If our activities succeed, then the platform is also successful. If we fail, then the platform fails. While that would seem a motivator to LL to ensure that users are successful, the harsh reality is that whenever they have attempted to directly support content (for example with the SL birthdays and the former Burning Life events), it has usually resulted in criticism for being too controlling, not providing enough resources, etc.

I suspect a corporate decision was made to simply provide the best platform they could and to hope that users would like what they were given enough to keep paying for real estate. Support for an individual artist or even a particular organization would create a precedent that would result in pleas from all corners begging for equal treatment. It surprises me not at all that a plea such as this one from Bryn received no response.


But Bryn didn’t give up. On 17 January New World Noted announced that renowned film director Peter Greenaway had donated seed funds to re-open Immersive. What’s interesting about this is that the donation went to a Bryn’s page on crowdfunding service IndieGoGo. Crowdfunding is a fascinating new way to generate startup and project funding for businesses and artists. You basically tell people what you want to do and how much it will cost to do it and what the deadline is to make it happen. You may offer incentives at various donor levels – anything from a smile to something of significant potential value. Art projects often offer original art products. Bryn offered to create an original ink drawing of one of her characters for a donation of $500, or an oil painting for $1000. (I presume Greeneaway is getting one.)

In Bryn’s case, she stated a fundraising goal of $5400US. With Greenaway’s seed of about $1770 (6 months tier), the project has (as of this date) raised over $6300US. Enough to cover nearly 2 years of tier. This has been a very successful campaign for her, but it should be understood that her success here is largely the result of the broad support she has cultivated over a long period of time. She will need to continue to cultivate those resources if she expects to sustain over the long term.

I am happy to report that Immersiva is currently up and running again.

ArtGyro at LEA

ArtGyro is about sustainability in the virtual arts. It’s a place to exchange ideas and leverage resources by building strategic relationships and sharing best practices. See ABOUT

ArtGyro is the recipient of a Linden Endowment for the Arts (LEA) Land Grant sim.

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Random stuff here. this is not real, just imagining:

ArtGyro Working Groups:

Virtual Aesthetics

Resource accessibility – Virtual divide

Intellectual Property Rights

Advocacy vs. marketing

Sustainable best practices


Creative Resources

What makes VWs special for an artist?