The first meeting of ArtGyro was a great success. While the conversation was a bit chaotic, it was nonetheless substantive, with several core issues identified. The group that showed up was an excellent mix of artists, presenters and patrons (with many representing more than one of these roles).
The core issues I gleaned from the conversations are:
- Commerce. This might be further divided according to issues for:
- Content providers (i.e., artists). Questions about selling. pricing work. Relationships with presenters. Market value vs. instrinsic value. Charging SL prices for rl work. Connecting with venue owners. Alternative venues (showing work in music clubs, Marketplace, the possibility of a dedicated art marketing website, etc.).
- Presenters (i.e., galleries and other venues). Cost of land. Artist relationships.
- Intellectual Property. Digital rights management relates to everything else. A no-copy object may be priced higher as a “unique” object (though there’s no way to ensure that), or it may be priced lower because the next owner has fewer options. To ensure conservation when providing an object to an archive the archive should ideally have perms to copy and transfer.
- Legacy. Rowan Derryth and I share a strong feeling that the work done here should be conserved somehow. There was good consensus that this is a good idea, but there are a lot of issues to be resolved concerning how work is archived, who owns the archive, who pays the costs, etc.
We will have more meetings soon to discuss all of these issues further.
Transcript of chat log:
ArtGyro Meeting 11 Feb 2012 7:00AM SLT
In attendance (may not be complete)
- Annie Milestone
- Armany Thursday
- Banrion Constantine
- ChapTer Kronfeld
- Dividni Shostakovich
- Dyce Underwood
- Freemason Magic
- FreeWee Ling
- Giovanna Cerise
- Harter Fall
- Honour McMillan
- Mania Amat
- Milly Sharple
- Penelope Parx
- pixel Reanimator
- Popov Huldschinsky
- Radagast Malaprop
- rant Ugajin
- Rowan Derryth
- Secret Rage
- shellina Winkler
- Shepphard Galbraith
- Sowa Mai
- Zachh Cale
[07:04] Armany Thursday: this is a great outline and a great forum FreeWee….thanks so much for doing this!!
[07:08] FreeWee Ling: Welcome to ArtGyro everyone! Let’s get started.
[07:09] FreeWee Ling: I’m expecting a few others.
[07:09] FreeWee Ling: I did not publicize this widely. I wanted the conversation to be reasonably focused.
[07:10] FreeWee Ling: I was afraid too many people would be unmanageable.
[07:10] Rowan Derryth: lol good idea
[07:10] FreeWee Ling: But know that my intention is that these forums are open to everyone
[07:11] FreeWee Ling: This meeting has no agenda or designated end time. We’re here to talk and to make our concerns known and to learn from each other. I’m here as long as anyone wants to talk.
[07:11] FreeWee Ling: Please use text chat to talk. This is a public forum. Without objection, the chat log will be published on the ArtGyro website.
[07:12] FreeWee Ling: The essence of ArtGyro is openness. Not secrets. No decisions made behind closed doors, whatever that means.
[07:13] FreeWee Ling: I’m going to take the floor first for just a couple minutes to give you some context.
[07:13] FreeWee Ling: ArtGyro is a project to stimulate discussion about arts sustainability in SL. I chose the name because the metaphor of a gyroscope appeals to me as a device that provides stability by moving. The more kinetic energy that is imparted to it, the more difficult it is to knock it off its axis.
[07:13] Freemason Magic: nice
[07:13] FreeWee Ling: (Also because I needed to come up with a web domain on the spur of the moment.. heehee)
[07:14] Freemason Magic: hehe
[07:14] Freemason Magic: ok
[07:14] Dividni Shostakovich: Free, do you have the material you’re projecting available as a notecard?
[07:14] FreeWee Ling: Probably could have done better..
[07:14] Radagast Malaprop: good question
[07:14] FreeWee Ling: No I don’t but if you want I can make one real quick…
[07:15] Dividni Shostakovich: that would be useful I think
>>–misc. chatter removed–<<
[07:16] Freemason Magic: where they are about 5000 art galleries
[07:16] Freemason Magic: i need some guidance on how to talk to the art gallery owners
[07:17] Freemason Magic: to show the benefits of SL
[07:17] Freemason Magic: if anyone can help me i appreciated
>>–misc. chatter removed–<<
[07:20] FreeWee Ling: OK. Everyone should have the notecard. Don’t focus on that too much.
[07:20] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): thanks
[07:21] FreeWee Ling: We all know the issues and the stories. Important entities like UTSA, Pirats, Immersiva, Crossworlds, and others have either closed or been badly shaken in recent weeks and months due to budget problems. And some, like Flora Norenskiold’s NordanArt and fiona Blaylock’s artFiona gallery have closed for personal reasons that are not relevant to SL. We need to be clear on the distinctions. Things change for lots of reasons.
[07:22] FreeWee Ling: For example, UWA has been a preeminent art presenter for the last two years. The program continues, altered somewhat, this year. The changes are NOT due to budgetary issues, but primarily to priorities relating to JayJay’s job responsibilities and associated constraints on his time. Our monthly challenges are scaled back a lot, but the first two so far this year have been pretty remarkable. (Shameless plug: I encourage you to visit the current “Perfume” show and to consider submitting something on the theme of “Music” for next month. Deadline is March 1:)
[07:22] Rowan Derryth: 😀
[07:22] FreeWee Ling: In 2011, UWA entered into partnership and sponsorship agreements with many of the major art groups, including UTSA, Odyssey, Pirats, BOSL, CARP, NordanArt, and others. These relationships helped to stimulate interest in the challenges, but were also symbiotic. They lent their names and reputations to the UWA process and in doing so, the reputations of all parties, including UWA, benefitted. The associated groups could claim partnership with a major international academic institution, while UWA could claim support from the very best people working in SL art.
[07:23] FreeWee Ling: It’s these relationships that got me thinking about ArtGyro. The arts community in SL is generally united in its passion. But it seems to me that most people are pretty clueless about how to create a viable business model here. Surely there are opportunities here for people to work together symbiotically towards a common good.
[07:24] FreeWee Ling: We all know that SL is obscenely expensive. I am an arts administrator in rl. I work a regular job that doesn’t pay much. I am also a sim owner and have been on the brink of losing my private island a few times over the last four years. (Shameless plug #2: anyone interested in renting half a sim at cost, talk to me later 😉
[07:24] Rowan Derryth: lol
[07:25] Dyce Underwood: chuckles
[07:25] FreeWee Ling: Let’s see if we can work together to make our lives here more successful and less stressful.
[07:25] FreeWee Ling: This is an open forum. Please communicate in text chat. It is my intention to publish the chat log on the ArtGyro website http://artgyro.org so people who could not attend can learn and prepare for the next meeting. I also do not want to lose any really good ideas that get tossed out. Is there any objection?
[07:25] Honour McMillan: not here
[07:25] Secret Rage: nope…and good morning all 🙂
[07:25] Rowan Derryth: nope
[07:26] Mania (mania.amat): I have alittle one if i can
[07:26] FreeWee Ling: Yes?
[07:27] FreeWee Ling: Please try to focus on positive solutions, affirmative actions, successful examples, etc. This is not the place to bash Lindens or anyone else. Negativity is not productive.
[07:27] Mania (mania.amat): by my self, its would be necesary to determin where we are, and who can be touched, and i would avoid the Term of major Artist
[07:28] Mania (mania.amat): Web busisness go fast, and touch not only people interest in Art andmust live with them
[07:28] Mania (mania.amat): and can be introduced to it
[07:28] FreeWee Ling: I’m not sure I understand, Mania. Can anyone help?
[07:28] Rowan Derryth: I don’t either… maybe you mean you are concerned about privacy?
[07:29] Mania (mania.amat): well, i speake about the Matrix basic, Offer, Dimand and Environnement
[07:29] Radagast Malaprop: it’s hard to make money in art if no one wats to pay for it?
[07:29] Rowan Derryth: This is an objection to the chatlog being posted on the web?
[07:29] Mania (mania.amat): we are on the web,
[07:29] Armany Thursday: very true Rad…lol
[07:30] Dividni Shostakovich: well, to be honest, there may be issues which are best kept within a small group
[07:30] Mania (mania.amat): i said what i needed to say i will shutup for don’t take teh speake to other
[07:30] Radagast Malaprop: in bad economic times, entertainment is one of the first costs people cut
[07:31] Armany Thursday: nods in agreement
[07:31] Banrion Constantine: Alienating people just getting involved or who do not consider themselves major artists?
[07:31] Rowan Derryth: I think we are just trying to understand you Mania, but perhaps if there is consensus we can move forward, that readdress the question at the end.. when we see what we’ve discussed?
[07:31] Banrion Constantine: Is that what you mean?
[07:31] Armany Thursday: the poor economy has devasted RL galleries as well though
[07:31] FreeWee Ling: This is an open forum. I’m letting you know that you have no expectation of privacy here and that I intend to publish the chat log in order to serve the mission of ArtGyro. If anyone has a problem with that, they should probably not participate. A core tenet of ArtGyro is that too many decisions are being made by too few people.
[07:32] Quan Lavender: we are talking about small amounts compared to rl, which almost everyone can afford
[07:32] Armany Thursday: and artists incomes..
[07:32] Mania (mania.amat): im speaking with my marketting rl eyes,
[07:32] Rowan Derryth: Thanks FreeWee, I am find with that… I think we may be straying from agreeing with that point.
[07:32] Rowan Derryth: fine*
[07:33] SHєקק (shepphard.galbraith): Post this on the web by all means 🙂
[07:33] FreeWee Ling: Yes. We’re moving into the discussion itself. Can we agree on the chatlog Mania?
[07:34] Mania (mania.amat): i quite agree
[07:34] FreeWee Ling: ok.
[07:34] Mania (mania.amat): will eb helpfull for have a think afterward
[07:34] FreeWee Ling: ty
[07:34] FreeWee Ling: Please try to focus on positive solutions, affirmative actions, successful examples, etc. This is not the place to bash Lindens or anyone else. Negativity is not productive.
[07:34] FreeWee Ling: The topics may shift as we proceed, but we need to stay on task. I will be the benevolent overlord here. I may interrupt a thread to redirect the conversation to ensure everyone is heard and that we don’t stray too far.
[07:35] FreeWee Ling: This is a public forum. Whatever direction it takes will be determined by your interests and your willingness to pursue them. I’m just raising questions to stimulate dialogue. Take a look at these questions and tell me what you want to talk about. What do you think is the most pressing issue for the survivability of art in SL? Let’s make a list.
[07:36] Sowa Mai: a way to make money off of the art, providing income to pay for sims
[07:36] FreeWee Ling: There are a couple of shared media screens. One behind me and one opposite. I’ll be adding text as we go along.
[07:37] Rowan Derryth: Well personally, while I think the financial part certainly underlies the problem, my own worry is about access and preservation. SL is only viable if the larger art world starts to take it seriously as a platform.
[07:37] Rowan Derryth: But perhaps that is a discussion for another time.
[07:37] Honour McMillan: Some of you know me and know I’m a “fan” not an artist but I think the issue is really multiple issues. Gallery owners/artists (and let’s avoid the amateur vs professional please?/exhibitors have unique situations – at least in my opinion – and perhaps require different approaches
[07:37] Radagast Malaprop: i think SL is an inherently creative space, and there are few barriers to creating art and getting it seen here (by existing residents)
[07:37] Secret Rage: i did have a thought recently…there are some who will pay for art but they don’t know where to look for it~maybe some sort of a collective site where pieces could be shown/listed…would be helpful
[07:37] FreeWee Ling: If you look at the notecard I shared, there were some hard numbers about the cost of prims.
[07:38] Armany Thursday: well i really don’t see a profitability opportunity in SL….unless one has no overhead…
[07:38] Rowan Derryth: I agree with Armany… I think sustainability is a better notion
[07:38] Secret Rage: if there is one already…i am unaware of it
[07:38] Armany Thursday: but then …..i really don’t see how it is ethical to charge if you have no overhead…
[07:38] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Zachh Cale (16m)
[07:38] Radagast Malaprop: there used to be an art gallery lists maintained by Sasun
[07:39] Radagast Malaprop: but the list became huge
[07:39] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): still is
[07:39] Radagast Malaprop: still is? good 🙂
[07:39] Dividni Shostakovich: yes, it is
[07:39] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Radagast Malaprop (18m)
[07:39] FreeWee Ling: A good point honour. Do we need different track for different users? Artists vs, gallery owners?
[07:39] Rowan Derryth: I think the role of ‘finding’ art is well in place, through groups.. a central space/gallery might be very problematic
[07:40] Mania (mania.amat): that could create an other mainstream wys of think a very dangerous direction lol
[07:40] Secret Rage: i guess i was thinking more of a website…where we could all add pieces for sale
[07:40] Sowa Mai: What do you think is the most pressing issue for the survivability of art in SL? Let’s make a list.
[07:40] SHєקק (shepphard.galbraith): Im sure many of you could work with music venue owners — peole stand there for an hour or more
[07:40] Sowa Mai: money
[07:40] Rowan Derryth: I think having everyone at the ‘circle’ is a good idea FreeWee… not all gallery owners get artists concerns, and vice versa
[07:40] Radagast Malaprop: a new search category in SL search 🙂
[07:40] Quan Lavender: Regarding the prims, I think more art could be sold, when artists more consider the number of prims in their artwork. They should learn to reduce the no. of prims as other builders do. That enhances the chances of sales
[07:40] Dividni Shostakovich: in theory people can actually use the Marketplace for that … though it’s pretty terrible
[07:40] FreeWee Ling: You can sell art on Marketplace?
[07:41] Quan Lavender: oh yes, Bryn and Rebeca do
[07:41] Dividni Shostakovich: yes, but I’ve never looked at how it’s organized
[07:41] Rowan Derryth: Sure, why not? It is content like anything else
[07:42] FreeWee Ling: The central issue is cost of prims. Prims cost money. Who pays for them?
[07:42] SHєקק (shepphard.galbraith): where do people gather ???
[07:42] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): the owner 🙂 pays for it
[07:42] Quan Lavender: The art buyer at the end pays
[07:42] FreeWee Ling: The LAND owner pays.
[07:43] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): the buyer pays for the art, not the cost of it
[07:43] Mania (mania.amat): the Role play Sims pays
[07:43] Armany Thursday: well prim creation costs money…prim display costs money…..
[07:43] Sowa Mai: budget prims
[07:43] FreeWee Ling: In a gallery, the gallery owner pays for the prims. They may get a commission off sales, but how often doe that result in a profit at the end of the month?
[07:43] Quan Lavender: that is not the right thinking. The art buyer wants to have the art not in the inventory
[07:44] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): never, the Gallery owner does it for the ‘art’ and love
[07:44] Zachh (zachh.cale): i don’t usually use “art” and “profit” in the same sentence lol
[07:44] Banrion Constantine: so in the end, the art buyer also has to pay for prims to show the art.
[07:44] FreeWee Ling: A 100 prim object costs $24 US in prim cost just to exist inworld.
[07:44] FreeWee Ling: per year
[07:44] Rowan Derryth: I don’t know Quan.. I have a collection in my inventory that I rotate, knowing I can’t show it all at once. And I tend to not think about prim cost when I buy, but the work. Just another perspective.
[07:44] Banrion Constantine: Thanks, Zachh. 🙂
[07:44] Secret Rage: agreed Zachh
[07:44] Armany Thursday: exactly Zachh….LOL
[07:44] Rowan Derryth: But I might be unusual.
[07:44] Rowan Derryth smiles at Zachh
[07:45] Quan Lavender: yes, me too Rowan, but what about primy artworks?
[07:45] Dividni Shostakovich: well, not having many prims available in my home, I *always* worry about the prim cost of the art
[07:46] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): that is quite right 🙂
[07:46] FreeWee Ling: Yes. The fact is there’s a limit. Even if you own a whole sim, there’s a limit. The prim economy dictates that there is a limit and a cost. This is an issue for creating new art as well as preserving and dispaying legacy art.
[07:47] Armany Thursday: seems to me….having a gallery in SL is a philanthropical endeavor pure and simple…..
[07:47] Secret Rage: yes indeed
[07:47] Quan Lavender: but is that fair?
[07:47] FreeWee Ling: Who is making a profit in SL art?
[07:47] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): that is very right, believe me 🙂
[07:47] Harter Fall: Yes SLs “shadow” currency is peims!
[07:47] Rowan Derryth: But you might argue that is an issue in RL too.. a gallery is only so big, the bulk of collections sit in ‘inventory’, and there is a cost to keeping them – and they don’t even get to sell copies, except for the gift shop
[07:47] Harter Fall: prims*
[07:47] Rowan Derryth: I don’t think that is a problem that will change.
[07:47] Quan Lavender: the artists and visistors have fun, the gallery owners pay?
[07:48] Secret Rage: nods Rowan
[07:48] Armany Thursday: funny thing is….we all participate in this voluntarily….nobody forces us to create or have galleries within SL…
[07:48] FreeWee Ling: The difference from rl is tha ratio. SL sims cost real money. Art is sold for Lindens.
[07:48] Rowan Derryth: Honestly? You pay for an exhibit by having a BLOWOUT opening with a fat tip jar. Hopefully you get featured, and traffic continues. You’ll never make rent through selling work.
[07:49] Dividni Shostakovich: it’s probably true that most gallery owners do it for the love, but does that mean artists don’t need to worry about their sruvival?
[07:49] Dividni Shostakovich: *survival
[07:49] Quan Lavender: true Dividni
[07:49] Rowan Derryth: But isn’t it comparable Freewee? Linden ARE real money, after all.
[07:50] Armany Thursday: well artists have the ability to own/operate their own gallery/studio sims…
[07:50] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): very much so
[07:50] Secret Rage: i do understand all the concerns over money…truly i do…but in my case~i will still make my things if i never see a dime…
[07:50] Armany Thursday: and experience the costs for themselves LOL
[07:50] Secret Rage: i think a lot of us feel that way
[07:50] Banrion Constantine: Agrees, Rage.
[07:50] Rowan Derryth nods
[07:50] FreeWee Ling: I pay $295 a month for may sim. I can buy a fine piece of art for $4
[07:51] FreeWee Ling: I think that’s a decision we all make. Is what we do here, either as a creator or presenter, viable? Do we have to make money on it to keep doing it? And is that realistic?
[07:51] Harter Fall: Exactly Freewee thats one of the main problems!!!!
[07:52] FreeWee Ling: I think most people don’t have an expectation of their work covering their costs. Am I wrong?
[07:52] Armany Thursday: SL is viable as a passion…..not as a profitable business opportunity
[07:52] Harter Fall: Noone really buys art atm. And if you look at the arts prices… thats more of a joke.
[07:52] Zachh (zachh.cale): yes perhaps for a very few
[07:52] Secret Rage: tho i would love to have a full sim…i content myself with the near 4600 prim my plot gives me…and i am fortunate and/or lucky enough to be able to break even…
[07:53] Rowan Derryth: Well, you might ponder the deeper issue then, beyond money… where does your art collection go? Who really owns it? What happens to the work of SL goes down for good? Where is your investment (IF you view it that way) then?
[07:53] Quan Lavender: And if one decides it has to make money, one should accept some restrictions for the market
[07:53] Secret Rage: i thought of adding art pieces into my stores listings on the market…but how do we decide what to charge?
[07:53] Honour McMillan: if a piece of art is going to go for a high price then I would expect there not be unlimited copies :p
[07:54] Rowan Derryth nods at Honour
[07:54] Quan Lavender: true
[07:54] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): if it art, it is unique
[07:54] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): only one piece
[07:54] Secret Rage: i have one client i build for…i let her determine what she was willing to pay for one of a kind pieces…fortunately she has been generous with me
[07:55] Armany Thursday: Popov…there is absolutely no way to guarantee that within SL
[07:55] Secret Rage: but to set a price? i wouldnt know where to start
[07:55] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): unfortunately, it is too true
[07:55] FreeWee Ling: I think that’s a critical question, Rowan. I’d like to pursue the intellectual property and legacy issues. They’re all connected. But let’s focus on the economics for the moment.
[07:55] Armany Thursday: “one of a kind” cannot be guaranteed to the buyer….
[07:55] Rowan Derryth: I disagree that ‘if it is art, it is unique, only one piece’. Prints, etchings, photographs, are all reproducible media and art
[07:55] Rowan Derryth: You have to think of virtual art in the same manner
[07:56] FreeWee Ling: Is price an issue for sustainability?
[07:56] Armany Thursday: unless the artist sells the copyright along with the art
[07:56] Penelope Parx: me too i disagreed
[07:56] Quan Lavender: no, but a limited edition…
[07:56] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): yes, they are reproduction, hence copies
[07:56] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): call it art if you want
[07:56] Rowan Derryth: No, a print of an etching is an original. Every print you pull is an original, and yes, I call it art for sure, as do most
[07:57] Rowan Derryth: Just a FRIENDLY Fyi 🙂
[07:57] FreeWee Ling: Let’s hold back a little on the intellectual property issues for now. It’s important, but we need to stay on track.
[07:57] Honour McMillan: Rowan I agree but let’s look at the fashion industry for a moment – Eshi dressed go for a few hundred linden – when she does a limited or one of then tens of thousands – even knowing in the back of your mind somebody can copybot it they pay that
[07:57] Rowan Derryth nods at FreeWee
[07:57] Honour McMillan: *dressed
[07:57] Honour McMillan: sigh
[07:57] Honour McMillan gets more coffee
[07:57] Quan Lavender: exactly Honour
[07:57] Rowan Derryth: Good point Honour.. and I definitely think there is a place for unique work and prices that reflect it.
[07:58] Honour McMillan: or accept that you have to sell a lot at a low price
[07:58] Honour McMillan: it’s just the way the market works
[07:58] Armany Thursday: i would never represent something as one of a kind in SL….
[07:58] FreeWee Ling: We can have meetings to address more specific issues. We’re here to get a sense of what is important for sustainability. This is just a start. Let’s not get into minutiae
[07:58] Harter Fall: On the other hand we are also kind of digital artists and the uniqueness is different with that
[07:58] Rowan Derryth: But reproducability of virtual work is a big part of its existence, and also offers a wonderful aspect too it.. amazing art that is affordable to the masses is an idea I LOVE
[07:58] Mania (mania.amat): its teh way you figure it Armany
[07:58] Rowan Derryth: There is, to me at least, and upside to the financial aspect being unreliable
[07:59] Rowan Derryth: Exactly Harter
[07:59] Armany Thursday: i am a stickler LOL
[08:00] FreeWee Ling: Is there anyone in SL art who is doing it right? Is paying the bills and is making everyone happy?
[08:00] Zachh (zachh.cale): Speaking of sustainability, I’d still love to see a linden museum established, where select shows and art could be shown after it “graduates” the existing gallery/artspace system – a museum where it’s an honor to be asked as an artist, to place his/her installations/artwork for indefinite period of time. At least some works could be continually shared without burdening existing system
[08:00] Quan Lavender: Eliza I would say
[08:00] Popov ‘Dome Gallery’ Curator: (popov.huldschinsky): well I am paying the bills and hope to make the buyers happy 🙂
[08:00] Armany Thursday: that’s interesting Zachh……
[08:01] Rowan Derryth high fives Zachh
[08:01] Quan Lavender: haha
[08:01] Dividni Shostakovich: Yes Eliza is making it work — and gets flak for it too
[08:01] Rowan Derryth: THAT is what I’m lobbying for
[08:01] Zachh (zachh.cale): yayyyyyyy!!!
[08:01] Rowan Derryth: Eliza gets a LOT of crap, which is a pity
[08:01] Secret Rage: but there again…it’s a bill to be paid~granted, not by us…but to be paid still
[08:01] Rowan Derryth: Well, the UWA, because they have a sponsor institution
[08:01] FreeWee Ling: Yay, Zachh. I agree. However, I think any solution to any of our issues is not going to rely on the reasonable actions of LL.
[08:02] Harter Fall: Yes zachh! A museum for outstanding things ppl love like the AM Radio things.
[08:02] Armany Thursday: agreed FreeWee
[08:02] Rowan Derryth: I don’t know the ins and outs for Dividni and Zachh, but they get it right to me
[08:02] Zachh (zachh.cale): yeah we can’t depend on LL but look where we are sitting now
[08:02] Mania (mania.amat): also for speake about economy, that would be needed, the elements who compose it and what we want
[08:02] Rowan Derryth: (I wrote about that very thing not too long ago… hope you read it)
[08:03] FreeWee Ling whispers: Yes. Zachh, who pays for ArtScreamer and projectZ? Is that mostly out of your pocket? Also Davidni?
[08:03] Rowan Derryth: The museum thing I mean
[08:03] Zachh (zachh.cale): the possibility is there because are at LEA now, and if LL does wake up and see the marketability of it, like some suggest amradio, or ANYONE for that matter
[08:03] Dividni Shostakovich: ty Rowan — but I should point out that one of the reasons I survive is because I’m on half a homestead sim
[08:03] Rowan Derryth: Yes, and btw I don’t mean to ask about any financial things people aren’t comfortable sharing, not to put you on the spot
[08:04] FreeWee Ling: Agreed
[08:04] Zachh (zachh.cale): sorry rowan missed your line of thought, scrolling up 🙂
[08:04] Zachh (zachh.cale): how we do what?
[08:04] Rowan Derryth: The work you guys display is NOT for sale, to the best of my knowledge, and which is why I think what you do is awesome… it takes that aspect out of the equation for the artist, however, that also can be a problem
[08:05] Harter Fall: Same here Divini. I only can break even with my gallery and uploads cos im on very affordable land. (thanks to penelope)
[08:05] Dividni Shostakovich: no, just point out that one makes trade-offs in order to stay viable
[08:05] Secret Rage: agrees
[08:05] Rowan Derryth: Just that I thought you were getting it right Zachh.. and that I wrote about the museum thing recently, related to Immersiva closing
[08:05] Zachh (zachh.cale): ahhhh got you 🙂
[08:05] FreeWee Ling: Anyone know if LEA is going to allow the Pirats artists to sell work?
[08:05] Zachh (zachh.cale): we totally support artist if they want to sell items at installations, can’t speak for div
[08:05] Armany Thursday: oh gosh i thought it was non profit?
[08:05] Dyce Underwood: and sometimes that trade off is realizing it is not profitable and doing it because one loves it and wants to spread the beauty in SL
[08:06] Harter Fall: * Objects that allow payments of any kind are not permitted on LEA land. This includes vendors selling objects, objects set for sale, and tip jars. You may, however, give out landmarks to other places where your art is available for purchase, or other places where people can tip or donate money.
[08:06] Quan Lavender: Rowan, for that museum art must be transfer, otherwise the art gets lost with the left of avatars
[08:06] Dividni Shostakovich: pretty certain they would’nt, if they ever did
[08:06] Zachh (zachh.cale): yes Dyce 🙂
[08:06] Dividni Shostakovich: *if Pirats ever did
[08:06] Zachh (zachh.cale): Quan but why does it need to be transfer?
[08:06] Mania (mania.amat): Why do we speake about Art and Artist ?
[08:06] Rowan Derryth: Yep QUan, this was a big part of that conversation
[08:06] FreeWee Ling: I’ve bought several pieces at Pirats shows.
[08:06] Quan Lavender: Yes, Harter. The smart ones have shops in the marketplace 😉
[08:06] Zachh (zachh.cale): It’s not perfect, but can’t the artist at least agree to setup at a museum?
[08:06] Rowan Derryth: We had a good debate in the comments thread about copyright too
[08:07] Zachh (zachh.cale): if the artist sets it up with a curator, it’s there
[08:07] Zachh (zachh.cale): if the artist gets mad and takes it down, so be it lol
[08:07] Zachh (zachh.cale): we can’t control everything but do we need to? it’s still an honor to show
[08:07] Rowan Derryth: No, you want it to be in a museum collection, Zachh, that is tricky…
[08:07] Quan Lavender: GETTING mad? *lol
[08:07] Zachh (zachh.cale): well not replace existing system
[08:07] Rowan Derryth: THink of artists who have left SL.. you still want to show their work in the future
[08:07] Zachh (zachh.cale): lol Quan
[08:08] Zachh (zachh.cale): yes Rowan but if they setup at the museum, and leave it there, it’s still there
[08:08] FreeWee Ling: OK, I’m seeing some trends here. That’s what I was going for. We need meetings to talk about intellectual property issues. We need meetings to talk about conservation and legacy issues. What else?
[08:08] Rowan Derryth: What if you need to move it, or it breaks and you need to re-rez
[08:08] Zachh (zachh.cale): we don’t need 100% control to have something
[08:08] Secret Rage: i dunno…i kinda feel if they got in a snit and “took their ball home”….i dont really care too much
[08:08] Armany Thursday: well the landowner can return the work…
[08:09] Mania (mania.amat): Why do we speake about Art and Artist ? if i can repeat my question ?
[08:09] Zachh (zachh.cale): it’s sort of like, if we can’t have 100% we can’t have anything…. hopefully not an all or nothing
[08:09] Rowan Derryth: To me, for a museum collection, the museum would have to have perms… sorry this is a bit too nitty gritty probably 🙂
[08:09] FreeWee Ling: Perhaps a nonprofit trust?
[08:09] Rowan Derryth: I wouldn’t want to return a work to an artist that has left.. then the work is lost
[08:09] Rowan Derryth: Yes FreeWee
[08:09] Harter Fall: We also need a meeting about originality with the inelectual property one!
[08:09] Rowan Derryth: Well, if I’m being totally honest, I want a virtual Tate or Guggenheim…
[08:10] FreeWee Ling: I would not want LL to be responsible for it.
[08:10] Zachh (zachh.cale): well that’s an intereseting point Rowan, and probably a show stopper for some, but I still think that scenario exists now with galleries/artpsaces
[08:10] Zachh (zachh.cale): it just is what it is
[08:10] Penelope Parx: There is a way to have permissions…for a museum…is to buy art 🙂
[08:10] Rowan Derryth: And I’ve talked to a former GUggenheim curator who tried to start it, but SL is already looked down upon by the mainstream, and that is only getting worse
[08:10] Zachh (zachh.cale): lol penelope, touche
[08:10] Armany Thursday: yes Penelope
[08:10] Rowan Derryth: THAT is a huge question for viability…
[08:10] Penelope Parx: and i play to be penny parxenneim since my beginning
[08:10] Penelope Parx: lol
[08:10] Rowan Derryth: Penelope, I TOTALLY AGREE
[08:11] Harter Fall: lol
[08:11] Armany Thursday: Museums make acquisitons RL….they should SL as well
[08:11] Rowan Derryth: It is a matter though of the work’s perms
[08:11] Penelope Parx: in that way… my museum is free
[08:11] Secret Rage: i think someday they will
[08:11] Rowan Derryth: Yes, yes, I hope I didn’t imply otherwise.. we were just talking about perms, not purchasing
[08:11] Dividni Shostakovich: Museums do need funding however
[08:11] Secret Rage: rl and sl
[08:11] Armany Thursday: yes… ; ))
[08:12] Rowan Derryth: Yes, museums would have the same costs, however there IS grant money for virtual/electronic initiatives..
[08:12] Penelope Parx: i have a long term project…
[08:12] Rowan Derryth: But can we convince the Tate Modern that SL isn’t just for pron? 😉
[08:12] Rowan Derryth: Actually, Tate Modern might like that, lol
[08:12] Honour McMillan: Secret has a good point – this is not a mature market on the grid – and there’s an opportunity to mold it for the future – starting now with the different aspects of the art world
[08:12] Dividni Shostakovich: true Rowan
[08:12] Penelope Parx: about to make it sustenable
[08:13] FreeWee Ling: Just takes the right proposal to the right people. Use UWA as an example. We had 858 entries by 242 artists from 24 countries this last year.
[08:13] FreeWee Ling: We can document it.
[08:13] Zachh (zachh.cale): true FreeWee
[08:13] Rowan Derryth: I agree. And I think there is opportunity for that
[08:14] Rowan Derryth: But in terms of access and sustainability.. that is a positive direction
[08:14] FreeWee Ling: Let’s talk about that. We need a subcommittee for legacy issues. There is crossover with IP issues.
[08:15] Rowan Derryth: That is the aspect I’d most like to be involved with
[08:15] Rowan Derryth: Economics are important to that, but it isn’t my personal passion, and I’m a math idiot, lol
[08:15] Zachh (zachh.cale): I’d like to find out more about that too, perhaps it doesn’t have to be all or nothing, perhaps a compromise there somewhere
[08:15] Dividni Shostakovich: yay math!
[08:15] Armany Thursday: lol
[08:15] Rowan Derryth: hee hee
[08:15] Zachh (zachh.cale): lol
[08:16] FreeWee Ling: math who?
[08:16] Dividni Shostakovich: math media
[08:16] Dividni Shostakovich: 😀
[08:16] FreeWee Ling: lol
[08:16] FreeWee Ling: good one
[08:16] Penelope Parx: lol
[08:16] Zachh (zachh.cale): rimshot
[08:17] Dividni Shostakovich: on that note — unfortunately I have to leave, I’m going to the HD broadcast of the Metropolitan Opera
[08:17] Zachh (zachh.cale): ok Div!
[08:17] Zachh (zachh.cale): gtsy
[08:17] Dividni Shostakovich: thanks Free for organizing this
[08:17] Armany Thursday: nic Div….enjoy ㋡
[08:17] Dyce Underwood: Ohh nice Dividni. Have a great time
[08:17] Dividni Shostakovich: I look forward to reading the log
[08:19] FreeWee Ling: OK, I’m going to distill al lot of this conversation and see if I can identify the main concerns. We can have different meetings to address different issues.
[08:19] Harter Fall: yes
[08:19] Penelope Parx: yes
[08:19] Armany Thursday: ㋡
[08:19] FreeWee Ling: This has been a good start. I expected it to be a bit of a free for all, and that’s fine.
[08:19] Zachh (zachh.cale): thanks FreeWee, I think this is a great use of our time and this sim!
[08:19] Secret Rage: one topic per meeting would be a lot more useful
[08:20] Rowan Derryth: Agreed!
[08:20] Secret Rage: easier to stay on topic
[08:20] Rowan Derryth: Can I make another suggestion?
[08:20] Harter Fall: ty much for all the effort freewee. this here is long overdue
[08:20] Zachh (zachh.cale): yes
[08:20] FreeWee Ling: Yes. We’ll do that. We’ll also try different times.
[08:20] Secret Rage: 🙂 yayyyy FREEEEEEE
[08:20] Rowan Derryth: I LOVE the free conversation.. but if possible (and this is a lot of work I know), questions in advance that we could prepare thoughts for?
[08:20] Zachh (zachh.cale): and great site artgyro.org
[08:20] Rowan Derryth: Maybe share in turn?
[08:20] Zachh (zachh.cale): great idea
[08:20] Secret Rage: nice idea Rowan
[08:21] FreeWee Ling: Yes, we can do all that.
[08:21] Zachh (zachh.cale): hopefully with some time for free-for-all too
[08:21] Rowan Derryth: Then we can converse from there, but these things get hard in chat, lol
[08:21] Zachh (zachh.cale): cause some of are chaos driven lol
[08:21] Rowan Derryth: Exactly
[08:21] Rowan Derryth: hee hee
[08:21] FreeWee Ling: Perhaps Rowan can chair the legacy meetings. I’m not attached to being in charge of anything.
[08:21] Rowan Derryth: ACK! heheh
[08:21] FreeWee Ling: Heehee.
[08:22] Secret Rage: grins…<<<— surrvives on Chaos…has it for breakfast
[08:22] FreeWee Ling: We’ll work in it together, Rowan 🙂
[08:22] Rowan Derryth: Um, I’d LOVE to, but I’m not sure I could take that on soon.. maybe I can co-chair with Zachh or something 😉
[08:22] Rowan Derryth: Ok! lol
[08:22] Zachh (zachh.cale): lol secret munch munch
[08:22] Secret Rage: hehe
[08:22] Zachh (zachh.cale): i’d be willing rowan
[08:22] Rowan Derryth: cool
[08:22] FreeWee Ling: Anyone have special passion for IP issues?
[08:22] Rowan Derryth: Hopefully I’ll have a bit more time by next month
[08:23] Secret Rage: hum a bar….i’ll see if i know it Free 😉
[08:23] FreeWee Ling: OK, well we’ll work on that. lol. It occurs to me there’s a legal group in SL we might be able to consult/
[08:23] Secret Rage: let me know if i can help you…on a serious note~
[08:24] Zachh (zachh.cale): wow great idea
[08:24] Rowan Derryth: Oh, and maybe I should say, although I don’t think it makes a difference, I’m an advisor on the LEA now, but I have NO IDEA what that means.. and I imagine some of you might be on it too…
[08:24] Rowan Derryth: I couldn’t remember if Divi was
[08:24] Rowan Derryth: I haven’t been to a meeting or anything yet, and I don’t vote, lol
[08:25] FreeWee Ling: They asked me, but I told them I wouldn’t do it if I couldn’t vote.. heehee.
[08:25] Rowan Derryth: Hahaha
[08:25] Secret Rage: 🙂
[08:25] Penelope Parx: 🙂
[08:25] Zachh (zachh.cale): they vote??
[08:25] Zachh (zachh.cale): 🙂
[08:25] Rowan Derryth: It was the opposite for me, since my time is short.. but my understanding is you are an advisor first so they came make sure you aren’t crazy 😉
[08:25] Rowan Derryth: I admire that logic
[08:25] Secret Rage: buttttttttt
[08:25] FreeWee Ling: I wouldn’t have a chance.
[08:25] Secret Rage: grins…we all ARE
[08:26] Rowan Derryth drools a little
[08:26] Secret Rage: “no vote for you!!!”
[08:26] Secret Rage: hehe
[08:26] Secret Rage: ok all
[08:26] FreeWee Ling: Anyone who seeks office should automatically be banned from getting it.
[08:26] Secret Rage: i have to jet
[08:26] Secret Rage: yessssssss
[08:26] FreeWee Ling: Thank you all. This has been great 🙂
[08:27] FreeWee Ling: I’ll get the transcript on the website. Be sure you join the group.
[08:27] Sowa Mai: thanks free
[08:27] Banrion Constantine: Thank you Free. Good meeting. Much fodder for thought.
[08:27] Zachh (zachh.cale): this is a great group of people, hope it continues!
[08:28] Harter Fall: ty much freewee. looking forward to new conferences 🙂